Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
NOTE: One thing to keep in mind, if you can't recall how you felt when you were 19, the NAZI's would KILL any of their own soldiers who dis-obeyed orders. They struck FEAR into the hearts of their own and routinely, murdered their own. I'm sure this 19yr old was terrified when he committed these acts, terrified for his own life if he didn't obey.
I lived in Japan for many years and while the vast majority of Japanese never talk about the war there were some former solders who did. If a recruit didn't follow orders they were immediately beaten. In China the newly arrived soldiers were often commanded to bayonet a Chinese prisoner tied to a post. You did it or faced harsh repercussions. And if that didn't work threats would be made against one's family back home. They have a saying in Japan, "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down."
For the most part Japanese war criminals evaded justice when the war ended. The US Gov. was concerned about Russia attempting a land grab and while Japan's navy/airfare had been destroyed the army was still strong. MacArthur wanted to be able to rearm and mobilize these troop if necessary. Nobody was interested in looking too close at who did what during the war.
How do you know he was a member of the Nazi party?
He admitted it. If he's senile it shouldn't matter. Heartless ? No more so than any nazi was. He had a choice.
My maternal grandfather was German. He managed to survive WW1 in the German navy. He saw firsthand what was happening as Hitler came into power and got his family on a ship and out of the country in the late 30's. When I was a teen I remember he sat me down and told me about what happened - not in WW1 but in German society at the time and how the nazi's treated anyone who they considered Untermenschen or unglaubiger When I became an adult several decades later I recalled how prophetic his recollections were paralleled with current events of the time. I swear there are times I think all we need for a full scale repeat is a old fashioned book burning. Given today's cancel culture and paramilitary political groups such as Antifa, BLM and others using similar nazi tactics it's just a question of when.
Lowest level of foot soldier. Teenager at the time. Seems kinda pointless to go after a guy like that given so much time has passed and presumably in all his decades in America he's lived a regular life as a regular citizen.
Don't forget, 19 year old Americans did a lot of stuff in Vietnam that wouldn't be all that different from what this guy took part in. Most of them were never punished in any way.
Try reading the article. Nowhere does it say that he was a member of the Wehrmacht. Friedrich Karl Berger was a camp guard. Some of those were members of the various branches, others were not.
At Neuengamme's satellite camps, some guards came from the ranks of the Wehrmacht but they also consisted of customs officers, police officers, and even railway employees. So the notion you present, that he was deported for merely serving in the armed forces, is simply false. The precise reason that Friedrich Karl Berger had his citizenship stripped and was deported is because the 1978 Holtzman Act specifically forbade assistance in Nazi persecution, and at trial the judge determined that willingly serving as an armed guard at a Nazi concentration camp constituted said assistance. At trail, Berger admitted that he never so much as requested a transfer, and thousands of transfers are documented to have been requested by and granted to concentration camp guards in Nazi Germany and areas it occupied.
If you think it's unfair to treat concentration camp guards so harshly - deportation! [gasp] - then maybe you should start a campaign to repeal the Holtzman Act, so that no more willing participants in the 'final solution' have to eventually answer even in some small and insufficient way for what they did.
"But! But! He was just following orders!" didn't fly at Nuremberg. It shouldn't fly now, either.
At the same time, the U.S. made the decision to NOT prosecute Japanese soldiers who were morally equivalent (or worse) to those in Germany. Friggin' Hirohito was allowed to remain Emperor, for God's sake. Tens of thousands of Russian soldiers raped their way across Europe and were given medals for it. How many Italian officers were hung after the war? Paul Tibbets and his crew were Heroes, in my book, and will always remain so, so there is some truth that "The winners write the history books". Human wartime depravity goes deep, and you could find examples much closer to the present time, all across the Globe.
At this point, I would argue for a statute of limitation for all except maybe those in the German High Command, if there are any left. Hitler's and Eichmann's bloodline should not be hunted down via their DNA, if and when that becomes a thing. And to be clear, the History of that period needs to be told in a MUCH more honest way than it is in many of the countries of the world. I'd say that if the U.S. wants to pursue Justice, it should act to stop current acts of depravity still going on in the world. Slavery still exists, as do Gulags, across much of the world, and it gets a passing mention. My guess is the Uyghurs will thank you for it.
He admitted it. If he's senile it shouldn't matter. Heartless ? No more so than any nazi was. He had a choice.
My maternal grandfather was German. He managed to survive WW1 in the German navy. He saw firsthand what was happening as Hitler came into power and got his family on a ship and out of the country in the late 30's.
Similar story in my family. All the people who defend war criminals by saying they had no choice because they were under pressure, are disregarding the tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of people who DID make different choices under pressure, or at least tried to. There are big heroic examples, but there are also lots of just normal people who attempted to be decent, or at least to do as little harm as possible, despite the events they found themselves caught up in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly Q. Bobalink
At the same time, the U.S. made the decision to NOT prosecute Japanese soldiers who were morally equivalent (or worse) to those in Germany.
There's always another villain to find. The argument that because one person or group got away with something means no one else can be prosecuted for it is absurd to me. Do you also advocate for letting one convicted murderer out of prison for every murder case that doesn't result in a conviction? If you want things to be "fair," the answer is to more aggressively pursue those who haven't faced justice to balance things in that direction, not to go all schmoopy about the poor widdle Nazis.
There's always another villain to find. The argument that because one person or group got away with something means no one else can be prosecuted for it is absurd to me. Do you also advocate for letting one convicted murderer out of prison for every murder case that doesn't result in a conviction? If you want things to be "fair," the answer is to more aggressively pursue those who haven't faced justice to balance things in that direction, not to go all schmoopy about the poor widdle Nazis.
"Poor widdle Nazi's" is your caricature, not mine. I am simply agreeing with the premise that 75 years is an adequate S.o.L. for the majority of WWII participants, this particular guy was adjudicated when he was allowed to emigrate to the U.S. after the war and become a citizen. What do his citizenship papers say about him? I am not advocating for trying Japanese WWII participants, either, although they deserve it as much as former Nazis.
My main thought is that we should be focusing on real threats to the country, not boogeymen from 75 years ago. There is no active, real Nazi movement in the U.S. or in the world that constitutes a threat to our citizenry or the country. However, the Communists, who killed far more people than the Nazi's, are thriving, growing, and challenging the U.S. daily. Personally, that's where I'd focus our national attention. I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a "new" fascination with persecuting Nazis and Fascism mostly because Hitler hated the Communists. If I were forced at gunpoint to make a "List of good things about Hitler", I would have to list his fondness for (at least German) children, dogs, and country, and his hatred for the Communists (but I'd be stuck after four).
Bottom line, I have no love or fondness for Nazis. But we have Bigger Fish to Fry than a 95 year-old guy who spent the majority of his life living in the U.S. as an American, and disavows his comparatively short time in the German Army. If he were attending Nazi meetings for the last fifty years of his life, I'd agree to put him on the first plane to Berlin. My guess is that if you lived in Germany in the 1930's and early 40's, you would have been goose stepping around the Deutsches Stadion yourself (same with myself, not picking on you), or else we would have been dead - and my guess is you (nor I) would have made that choice.
Last edited by Curly Q. Bobalink; 03-16-2021 at 02:57 PM..
NOTE: One thing to keep in mind, if you can't recall how you felt when you were 19, the NAZI's would KILL any of their own soldiers who dis-obeyed orders. They struck FEAR into the hearts of their own and routinely, murdered their own. I'm sure this 19yr old was terrified when he committed these acts, terrified for his own life if he didn't obey.
I don't think that is an accurate statement until maybe the end of the war when things got more desperate for Germany. This sounds like an excuse by a German grandfather trying to justify his actions in WWII, we've seen it before and I don't buy it. In 1945 when the fall of Berlin was imminent, indeed the nazi fanatics, particularly SS, would hang deserting soldiers publicly and put sign on their chest indicating the "crime" as German troops were hauling ass away from advancing Soviet troops. I don't think it was common practice before 1945. Of course, all nations had a clause to execute soldiers that would refuse to follow orders or desert.
It was not due to fear totally (although punishment could be harsh). On the other hand the Wehrmacht were extremely discipled troops. There was no concept of questioning officer orders for the Wehrmacht as in today's military forces. It was the training of "unconditional obedience". It was that undeniable line of authority, from the Nazi's down which caused war crimes, particularly the eastern front. And the Wehrmacht did murder, it was not limited to SS troops. Combine that with the doctrine installed by the nazi's during the 30s against jews and communists - the war against the USSR was considered a war of extermination.
A note here however. The nazi powers were aware and concerned of the morale and psychological damage from the actions that the troops were ordered to do. German leadership was aware - some day the war would end and you couldn't have hundreds of thousands of mass murderers return to Germany. Hence you had the development of extermination camps, "clean" factories of death to commit mass murder, all unseen and managed by the few. That wasn't until 1943 or so.
Of course, most were aware of them, it wasn't totally clean. The Wehrmacht simply had to collect them and shove them into trains, instead of machine gunning them all into a ditch. They knew what fate beheld them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by john3232
I lived in Japan for many years and while the vast majority of Japanese never talk about the war there were some former solders who did. If a recruit didn't follow orders they were immediately beaten. In China the newly arrived soldiers were often commanded to bayonet a Chinese prisoner tied to a post. You did it or faced harsh repercussions. And if that didn't work threats would be made against one's family back home. They have a saying in Japan, "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down."
For the most part Japanese war criminals evaded justice when the war ended. The US Gov. was concerned about Russia attempting a land grab and while Japan's navy/airfare had been destroyed the army was still strong. MacArthur wanted to be able to rearm and mobilize these troop if necessary. Nobody was interested in looking too close at who did what during the war.
Yes but in Japan's case it was not fear of not following orders, it was that the Japanese soldier knew nothing else but brutality from it's officers. Totally different. The regular soldier was treated as a sub-human by it's officers so what happens when you capture a prisoner or encounter a civilian. What's lower than sub-human? The Japanese soldier merely treated this person as he was treated, or even worse, as all he knew was a life of brutality. He didn't need orders to execute civilians and POWs, he was happy to commit atrocities as for him it became a normal and expected act. There are other cultural elements of the Japanese of that time but I don't want to divert the topic too much.
Why are you sure of this? What about him makes you think he wasn't a true believer in the Nazi cause, perfectly happy to see "enemies" of the Third Reich exterminated?
After WII most rank-and-file Nazi soldiers and their supporters begged mercy and walked away with little consequence. This one chose to sneak around and lie for the rest of his life.
Also, there are plenty of 95-year-olds that have intact mental faculties.
FOR ONE THING he was 19yrs old, and in a poverty stricken environment where the only jobs to be had were that in the Military. MORE THAN likely, his family was impoverished by their own government, bearing the weight of bad decisions by their own leaders.
THINK NOT that Hitler had enemies within his own Army?...think again. MOST Germans hated Hitler and what he stood for, yet were powerless to control him. MANY DIED in attempt to escape the Nazis regime...and these stories were heavily circulated.
ALSO, its very LOW minority of nonagenarians who still have their mental faculties in tact. Most are lucky if they can walk a few feet without the aid of a walker.
MANY NON WW2 carry horrible guilt for that war. Even though they never participated in the war itself, many are burdened with heavy guilt (by association).
"Poor widdle Nazi's" is your caricature, not mine. I am simply agreeing with the premise that 75 years is an adequate S.o.L. for the majority of WWII participants, this particular guy was adjudicated when he was allowed to emigrate to the U.S. after the war and become a citizen. What do his citizenship papers say about him? I am not advocating for trying Japanese WWII participants, either, although they deserve it as much as former Nazis.
My main thought is that we should be focusing on real threats to the country, not boogeymen from 75 years ago. There is no active, real Nazi movement in the U.S. or in the world that constitutes a threat to our citizenry or the country. However, the Communists, who killed far more people than the Nazi's, are thriving, growing, and challenging the U.S. daily. Personally, that's where I'd focus our national attention. I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a "new" fascination with persecuting Nazis and Fascism mostly because Hitler hated the Communists. If I were forced at gunpoint to make a "List of good things about Hitler", I would have to list his fondness for (at least German) children, dogs, and country, and his hatred for the Communists (but I'd be stuck after four).
Bottom line, I have no love or fondness for Nazis. But we have Bigger Fish to Fry than a 95 year-old guy who spent the majority of his life living in the U.S. as an American, and disavows his comparatively short time in the German Army. If he were attending Nazi meetings for the last fifty years of his life, I'd agree to put him on the first plane to Berlin. My guess is that if you lived in Germany in the 1930's and early 40's, you would have been goose stepping around the Deutsches Stadion yourself (same with myself, not picking on you), or else we would have been dead - and my guess is you (nor I) would have made that choice.
Well stated. A lot of people here are "Virtue Signaling", and a lot of people here are engaged in phony puffery.
The youngest of WW2 veterans are now 94 and up. OK, on the German side they were conscripting basically *boys* at the very end, so they may be a bit younger than that on their side by now, if they are still alive. But the point is, anyone who had any actual authority back then is dead by now.
Some have asked about these suddenly "long hidden Nazi" reports, why it took them so long to find them. The answer is nearly always that they were already found long ago, and back then in the "denazification" period of 1945-1950, they were judged to be minor small fry. It took them so long because, well, these were minor people. This particular guy was a conscripted teenager, another two recent cases have been of a now very old lady was then a girl radio operator at such a camp, another recently prosecuted now very old man was an young concentration camp accountant, of all things.
These really were not the SS henchmen people, nor were they dropping in the poison gas.
A few years is probably all this level of people can be realistically prosecuted, and how many of them *already served that* while in holding pens back in the denazification process from 1945 to 1950.
How far down the chain of command can you go? Of course the Nazis were horrid and evil, but the question of how far down the chain of command you go must be realistically asked.
Meanwhile, from Southeast Asia to Africa to the Balkans, all too many genocides happened all too recently that are much more important at this time. And hardly any of the perpetrators there have been prosecuted.
Last edited by NickB1967; 03-16-2021 at 05:03 PM..
I lived in Japan for many years and while the vast majority of Japanese never talk about the war there were some former solders who did. If a recruit didn't follow orders they were immediately beaten. In China the newly arrived soldiers were often commanded to bayonet a Chinese prisoner tied to a post. You did it or faced harsh repercussions. And if that didn't work threats would be made against one's family back home. They have a saying in Japan, "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down."
For the most part Japanese war criminals evaded justice when the war ended. The US Gov. was concerned about Russia attempting a land grab and while Japan's navy/airfare had been destroyed the army was still strong. MacArthur wanted to be able to rearm and mobilize these troop if necessary. Nobody was interested in looking too close at who did what during the war.
This too is important. Would all the people who wanted the Morgenthau Plan to be implemented, and even the smallest of Nazi small fry to be fried, have any realization that the implication of that would be a Soviet dominated Europe and Japan (and hence a still Communist *world*)? The Soviet Empire's body count makes even the wretched Nazis look like small fry by comparison.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If he's senile it shouldn't matter. Heartless ? No more so than any nazi was. He had a choice.
