Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
does anyone know if there is a benefit of converting steam radiator heat to baseboard hot water heat?
i'm being advised by a home energy audit team to make the switch because all i can do with the steam radiator is improve to 85% AFEU steam boiler. if i switch to hot water baseboard, because the boiler doesn't have to boil water to create steam, i can get a 95% AFEU boiler. also, i think if i go this route, instead of installing tankless water heater to replace my gas water heater, the boiler can serve as the water heater also (but what about summer?).
also, the system they recommend for hot water (tankless) is Navien.
a friend of mine who is a civil engineer and generally knows a decent amount about this stuff said to get a rannai boiler with an indirect water heater.
Being you're in NJ and close to eastern PA consider a coal boiler. It's not what you're thinking, these are no different than standard boiler except the fuel. Some are even coming with computerized thermostats specifically for coal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp
i think if i go this route, instead of installing tankless water heater to replace my gas water heater, the boiler can serve as the water heater also (but what about summer?).
For oil or gas fired I would imagine it's not very efficient but I may be wrong. I believe they do same thing they do with coal fired boiler. The boiler will have a coil in it that is heated by the boiler water. The longer the coil the more GPM, this is basically instant hot water.
This is ideal for coal though for a few reasons. Firstly you want to run a coal boiler year round because an idle coal boiler is a rusting coal boiler, it's pretty big expense and you want to protect that investment. Secondly it's fairly cheap, it's cheaper for me especially because I can get the coal cheaper than most being in the heart of the anthracite region. Cost savings are variable depending on what you're paying for the coal and it can be even more. Lastly you can hook this up as thermosihphon loop, this will extract a lot of heat from the boiler as it's idle greatly increasing the efficiency summer or winter since it has to burn 24/7.
I don't have much info on coal but I agree with the thought that it may be worth considering converting old fashioned steam heat to more modern hot water heat in terms of greater efficiency. The catch, of course, would be whether such a switch makes sense. My experience is that the payback for switching out a heating plant is far longer than the relative fast payback for improving the insulation / weather sealing. Depending on how large the home is and the type of construction it may be relatively easy to up the insulation and seal off any sources of air leaks. Ideally you could switch some of the radiators to hydronic underfloor heating which is far more comfortable than any kind of baseboard or radiator.
Every house will have different costs to update the energy efficiency and most good energy auditors will explain that the faster payback options should be tackled first...
The catch, of course, would be whether such a switch makes sense.
Which has more to do with whether the equipment NEEDS to be replaced (yet) or not. If it does, then the calculations are limited to the incremental costs between changing like kind with something different.
In this specific instance though the "updating the heating plant" often includes a lot of pipe work and replacing the steam radiators. It will be very hard to justify that work and expense in most of those homes.
(some info)
Quote:
My experience is that the payback for switching out a heating plant is far longer than the relative fast payback for improving the insulation / weather sealing.
I guess this does still need to be said.
Good for you that you said it.
we're doing it as part of a larger project that includes sealing and insulation improvements. the NJ program allows a 0%, $10,000, 10 year loan, and a $5,000 credit. so i can do up to $15,000 worth of work, for basically 0% loan and that's it. to get the credit and the loan, you need to improve your efficiency by 25% or more. so to get there, the boiler and hot water would need to be part of the project. my current boiler is 10 years old, and doesn't seem to be well maintained. no current issue, but if i have to replace it 3 or 4 years from now without a $5,000 credit and 0% loan, it makes sense to just do it now.
but beyond that...the decision comes down to just keep the system the same, or convert to hot water baseboard to get even better efficiency, and supposedly longer life span on the boiler.
sorry - but coal isn't going to be an option, but thanks for the suggestion.
...my current boiler is 10 years old, and doesn't seem to be well maintained. no current issue...
At ten years, a steam boiler is just getting broken in.
With just moderate care it should work productively for 30+ years.
Unless you're just bound and determined to throw it out and buy new...
find a well established heating guy with a mid thirties "controls" type working for him.
Find out whats really going on with the boiler.
If you do decide to replace it... sell it as is and before removal.
The buyer will be happy to do that work for free.
If your remodeling guys do the removal...
I've got a case of beer here that says it leaves the building in one piece with nothing damaged. (<-- hint)
Quote:
we're doing it as part of a larger project...
Does that include opening up walls, ceilings and floors?
If so... then that opens you up to all sorts of design and mechanical possibilities
that most homeowners will rarely have the chance to even approach justifying they do.
Quote:
to get even better efficiency, and supposedly longer life span on the boiler.
...requires ranging into the speculative and subjective and judgmental.
Location: God's Gift to Mankind for flying anything
5,921 posts, read 13,858,315 times
Reputation: 5229
Do the math ...
What doses it cost now to heat, use hot water a year now ?
How much would you save getting a *more efficient* system ?
How much would you spend, getting that system ?
How many years would it take to recoup that expenditure ?
If you are OK, with that amount of years, meaning you will still live there *after you have recouped your investment*, then *go for it* !
Would you *get it back* if you would sell soon ?
OUr house had steam heat before we moved it. The existing boiler was the size of a volkswagon and not terribly efficient. We left is behind when we moved the house.
We could not find anyone willing to hook a new steam boiler up to the existing piping and radiator system. They were too concerned about liability if the old pipes broke and someone got burned by the steam. We re-piped the system with PEX and swapped out the steam radiators for hot water radiators. Some of the old radiators would work for hot water, but some were the one pipe type and had to be replaced. Installing antique radiators is frustrating (but they work better are more efficient and look better than the modern copper baseboard radiators). The old radiators tend to crack when you tighten various plugs and couplings, so you need a lot of spare from a salvage place.
Anyway compared to steam, the hot water requires less (no) maintainence. The steam radiators were hotter and you could get burned by touching them. Not so with hot water. They are uncomfortable to touch unless you have a pillow (in which case they are wonderful to sti on or lean against, especially if you are a cat). They will not burn you. in general they are less compfrotable. They heat up slowly and the steam radiators used to let a little bit of steam out into the air, I think through bleeder valves. Thus it was never dry in the winter. Hot water does not get bagnging (at least not with PEX) and it is easier to keep it working (we do nothing except change the filter on the boiler intake).
As to boilers, we shopped around a great deal. We did a lot gf research and considered recommendations from several different HVAC companies. We selected a 210,000 or 220,000 BTU Lochnivar KNight boiler. It was pricey ($6,000). However this is a large unit because we have a big old house with poor insulation in parts of it. It is very high tech and supposedly super efficient. Until recently, I would have told you to stay away from it despite the remarkable test results rave reviews and claims of the manufacturer. It kept going out, sometimes for weeks in the middle of winter. The installer tried all kinds of things including disconnecting the external thermostat which is the key to the efficiency of the thing. They modified the intake and exhaust pipes, changed the computer control panel all kinds of things. Year after year we woke up to a freezing cold house and ended up heating with fireplaces and kerosene heaters while they tried to find the problem. Finally after about five very angry calls to Lochnivar, they sent out their most knowledgeable area sales manager. IN about an hour he figured out that the installed had not programmed it properly. This was last winter. So far it works beautifully. If it is as good as the tests and reviews indicate, it is the best option, once you get it programmed correctly.
Hot water baseboard is less efficient than cast iron radiators. Cast iron transfers heat better than copper. Your boiler upgrade cna make it more efficient, but the old radiators are better (look better too IMO).
As a side note. You probably know this but radiated heat is much better than forced air in about a dozen ways. Hot water/steam heat are far more comfortable, healthier and efficient than forced air. There are several threads about this that you can find here.
Anotehr side note:
We have a separate Rennai water heater for hot water. I was talked into Rennai over Takagi which we had in our old house by our plumber who was an authorized Rennai dealer. I wish I would have gone with Takagi, the output was better, we did not have maintained issues that we have with Rennai and it was cheaper (plus they do nto have restrictions on who can install it). They also talked me out of my plan to have two smaller units instead of one big one. One in the basement and one in the second floor attic. I wish that I had not listened to them. The cost difference was not that much and it would have worked much better for our family that way.
Last edited by Coldjensens; 09-30-2011 at 08:31 AM..
What doses it cost now to heat, use hot water a year now ?
How much would you save getting a *more efficient* system ?
How much would you spend, getting that system ?
How many years would it take to recoup that expenditure ?
If you are OK, with that amount of years, meaning you will still live there *after you have recouped your investment*, then *go for it* !
Would you *get it back* if you would sell soon ?
the break even calculations at today's PSEG rates run around 7 years. i think i'll be here at least for 10, but almost definitely for 7.
my thought mainly was...what will it be like trying to sell a home with a 30 year old boiler, if it makes it the entire time? admittedly, the on demand hot water is really just to push us over the 25% and get the $5,000 credit, which more than pays for the on demand heater, and helps offset some of the furnace.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It's not what you're thinking, these are no different than standard boiler except the fuel. Some are even coming with computerized thermostats specifically for coal. 
