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It's actually a house a friend of mine down south looked at and is thinking of buying. My question is really one out of curiosity than anything else.
I thought perhaps some country electrician, or even a lay person wired the place using an old tried-and-true method they knew.
I have seen many times where a house had an addition or some other kind of major alteration, the MLS or city/county records will reflect that date (when the addition was built), and not the oldest part of the house, which I guess might be the case here. I just was not sure how late this stuff might had been installed, even after it had fallen out of common use, but parts were still available in some out of the way hardware stores, etc...
Inspection and code aren't what they are today, so it is very possible, especially if it was extremely rural back in the day.
The K&T I am familiar with was installed an inch or two apart some on a single post and some on separate posts and on long runs even further apart, those boys knew the wire insulation was frail and treated it as such .
If I remember correctly it is multi stranded wire which was ahead of it's time IMO.
The advantage in home construction is that it is extremely unlikely that if blind drilling through a wall to the other side and accidentally hitting one of the wires was near impossible and it didn't short out the whole circuit, where as with romex it is inevitable.
If I were to build another cabin for my self again, it would be using all old stuff and enjoying every minuet of it. Including
K&T wiring an all the antique switches and outlets . Multi strand #10 through out ,soldered tips .
I don't know when Knob and Tube wiring was replaced with armored cable (BX) but when I started in the business in 1964 I only ran into it in much older houses. Generally around 1900-1930's.
I can tell you that the electricians that installed knob in tube wiring in houses were much better tradesmen than some of the butchers you see today wiring houses, especially tract housing.
I'll back that up. Was an electrician for 10 years. Typically found K&T in pre-1940's era houses.
And def agree on the second statement. Homes back in the 1900-1940's were much better built with attention to detail than some of the homes built 1970's and on that I've been inside the walls off.
Inspection and code aren't what they are today, so it is very possible, especially if it was extremely rural back in the day.
Oh, the house is in a pretty rural area and in the early fifties it was even more so. I owned a house not too far from there, within the same county, which was built in 1988---had the county inspection stamp, etc in the breaker panel. I went to replace a light fixture at one point, seemed straight forward with power cut at wall switch. I opened the switch box as well to make absolutely sure that was the case--and it was a very good thing I did. While it was the case, the neutral was switched instead of the hot. And this was in a house built by a major local builder in 1988, supposedly went thru county inspection, etc. So, yes they are probably pretty lax.
That's because the neutral wire is a current carrying conductor.The ground is not and that's why it does not have to be insulated.
Only on a service entrance panel are the neutral and ground conductors connected to the same bus.
On a sub panel the neutral and grounds have their own bus.
The reason being the grounding electrode conductor only goes to the service panel.
Instead of chuckling read the code book.
My house (built 1991) only has one panel, the main entrance panel. There are no sub-panels.
A house I used to have (built early 1900s) had knob and tube wiring, and only one fuse panel.
No, not a breaker panel, a FUSE panel, with glass plug fuses! No three prong outlets in the house.
It qualified for a VA loan.
I installed a breaker panel and started the re-wiring process, along with removing the lath and plaster interior walls and installing insulation.
My house (built 1991) only has one panel, the main entrance panel. There are no sub-panels.
A house I used to have (built early 1900s) had knob and tube wiring, and only one fuse panel.
No, not a breaker panel, a FUSE panel, with glass plug fuses! No three prong outlets in the house.
It qualified for a VA loan.
I installed a breaker panel and started the re-wiring process, along with removing the lath and plaster interior walls and installing insulation.
I see people sometimes who will buy, or look at an older or historic home and think either these older homes still always have their old, original wiring in them or that it should be restored when the house is---a good restoration will not keep or 'restore' the actual mechanical systems. Things in a house like old k&t wiring, old plumbing, etc. will only last so long and in many cases are either no longer safe or practical to keep in use.
Go look at a house built in say 1750, in good repair. Seldom will you find much of the original plaster walls/ceilings, windows, etc...there's a very good chance the interior has been re-plastered a few times over those 260 years. You might find original woodwork, doors, etc. but that's about it in terms of interior elements.
Same thing goes with a house from say 1910: a good restorer will preserve woodwork, ornaments, old fixtures of they are period correct, etc..but they will certainly not keep the 100-year old wiring, pipes, waste drains etc unless if necessary for some good reason. If an original gas-electric chandelier is found, they'll restore it, rewire it, and reinstall it. An old marble sink might be kept, restored, but the old pipes serving it will be replaced. A good restoration will be sensitive to history, but not a slave to it.
I am looking at purchasing a small apartment building that has knob and tube wiring and needs some rehab. Are there any issues with just leaving this in place and renovating the building without updating the electrical section? Or should I remove the old wiring? ( http://www.city-data.com/forum/”ht...iring-removal/ ) Thanks!
How big is this building?
If you're talking about any significant remodeling, like new plumbing or gutting rooms, etc. you're probably going to have to replace the old electrical as well to bring it up to code. Localities are different in what they require code wise, but for rentals it can be different than for your own home. You're probably going to need to bring the electrical up to code if the remodeling in the building is on a significant scale. But, you're best asking your city/county building dept. about that one....
In my opinion, K&T can be safe, but there are so many things that could have happened to it in the +/- 75 years that it has been installed, that certain procedures should be enacted for safety's sake. My inspector tells me that I should make a presentation to the local electrical society for an improvement in the NEC and maybe someday I will. The NEC is woefully negligent on K&T, but that isn't the job of the NEC.
In a nutshell, anytime I see Knob & tube or aluminum wiring in a customer's house, regardless of whether the wire is #12 or #14, I recommend pitting it on a 15 Amp combination-type AFCI circuit breaker.
(And before someone starts complaining about AFCIs and nuisance trips, I'm going to tell you what I did to STOP nuisance trips and call-backs ...ready? I did what every professional HATES to do: I read the damn directions. So: cut the neutral pigtail as short as you can while maintaining a gentle and gradual curve to the neutral bus. Seriously: don't leave the pigtail curled up, and don't make a sharp bend to get to the neutral bus)
Here is what I wrote to educate my customers (it's a google doc, so you should be able to see it):
[url]https://docs.google.com/document/d/175MK4Ny0t8eEzNDvjzl5R0lMHYjMq0quFTJVmuIXWm8/edit?usp=sharing[/url]
I can see some old timer insisting on K&T long after it was used because in his day that is "how its done". I have know idea when that was but in kinda reminds me of my friend. He had a house built a couple of years ago and insisted on copper water pipes. His general seem to think he was some kind of nut job. He got his copper but he also paid for it. I wonder how many homes get copper and when that will be no more.
The last K&T would have been right at the end of WWII around here. Currently, if our electric provider comes out to the property and finds active K&T system in use, they will promptly remove the meter and the house MUST be upgraded to current standards. Many house flippers get caught with this and lose their wallets. The provider does not actively inspect for K&T, just when you do any kind of an upgrade that requires an electrical inspection is when they catch it. You best know the local codes and requirements here or expect it to cost you. Same goes for the old lead/cast iron sewer systems. If they inspect and find it in use, they will pull the water meter until the sewer system is brought up to current code.
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