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For about a month now, the one for my entry from the garage, guest bathroom, and several wall receptacles trips on its own, without fail, after 20-40 minutes. There is no reason for this -- nothing is being turned on or off when this happens, ever.
House is under warranty. I've had them out twice now, and both times they've taken all the receptacles and switches out, looked them over, put them back in the walls, turned on the breaker, and pronounced it fixed. Both times I've left to go back to work thinking it was fixed, only to come home and find it tripped again. And resetting it gives proper function for the same 20-40 minutes before it's cut again.
Now I just want it to work.
--Can I replace it with a regular circuit breaker?
--What would I need to know to do that?
--Is it dangerous even if the main breaker is off?
--Is there any way to keep the AFCI but disable its constant tripping (the "protection")?
For about a month now, the one for my entry from the garage, guest bathroom, and several wall receptacles trips on its own, without fail, after 20-40 minutes. There is no reason for this -- nothing is being turned on or off when this happens, ever.
House is under warranty. I've had them out twice now, and both times they've taken all the receptacles and switches out, looked them over, put them back in the walls, turned on the breaker, and pronounced it fixed. Both times I've left to go back to work thinking it was fixed, only to come home and find it tripped again. And resetting it gives proper function for the same 20-40 minutes before it's cut again.
Now I just want it to work.
--Can I replace it with a regular circuit breaker?
--What would I need to know to do that?
--Is it dangerous even if the main breaker is off?
--Is there any way to keep the AFCI but disable its constant tripping (the "protection")?
Thanks!
I hate these things with a passion. I had all kinds of problems with them. Although I knew nothing about them a few years ago, I was forced to learn.
--Can I replace it with a regular circuit breaker?
Is it possible, or is it allowed?
Many building codes require Arc fault protection in all bedrooms. I have heard but never seen places that reqrire them in other rooms. So if they are required for the rooms that are on the same curcuit, then you are not allowed to change out the arc fault breaker for a regular breaker. Unless you are doing work on your house, it is unlikley that you will ever have an inspector discover that you changed out the breaker (until you try to sell the house), but the AFCI's are required for a reason. Look into the reason and decide whether you think it is a valid reason or a stupid reason. You have to make your own decision, I have my opinions, but I will not voice them here. This is a safety issue. If they are requried, you could arguably be creating a safety hazard by removing the breaker.
It is strange that you have Arc fault and not GFCI breakers for your bathroom. GFCI is required for bathrooms. Do you have GFCI outlets in the bathroom? I am not sure that you can use a GFCI outlet on an arc fault protected circuit. Someone with more knowlege than me will tell you that.
However it is certainly physically possible and it is very easy to do. Many people change them out without turning off the power. I do not trust my clumsiness, so I pull the main breaker/fuse thingy before I change out the circuit breakers. Of course that means that you have to re-set every clock and computer, so somtimes I have done it without turning off the power, but I would not recommend it for a typical DIY attempt.
--What would I need to know to do that?
You would need to know whether it is legal to change it out. It is probably required by code becuase arc fault breakers are absurdly expensive, so it is unlikley that they would have put one in unless it was requried.
You would also need to know the size of breaker and type of box that you have. Most use the standard type. Some boxes use different types of breakers. I think the brand that I ran into with different breakers was double D or something like that.
You can get a book from Home depot or a library with pictures that show you how to do it, but if you have any idea of how an electrical system works, you can just look at it and figure it out. Once you get over being scared, it is a five minute job.
--Is it dangerous even if the main breaker is off?
THe main breaker/fuse thingy only cuts off power to the portion of the box below the breaker/fuse thingy. THere is still power above the breaker. I have a charred screwdriver to prove it. Pay attention to where your hands or tools go when you are looking at something else.
It is also possible to screw up the installation so badly that something shorts out when you turn the power back on. You can also kill yourslef if you do something really really stupid when you are putting the main breaker back in.
It is always dangerous when you are messing with electricity. Stick a screwdriver in the wrong place - - - Goodbye. Use insulated screwdrivers and wear rubber soled shoes. If you ahve them, wear electrician's gloves. Try not to touch walls or the box. If oyu are nto grounded, a slip up is less likely to hurt you.
--Is there any way to keep the AFCI but disable its constant tripping (the "protection")?
You cannot disable the afci's proteciton, but it may be defective. The first thing that I would do is take a different afci from another slot and put it in tot he problem slot. If it works, then you have a defective AFCI (pretty common) and you just buy a new one. If an AFCI that works in other slots trips in this slot, then you have a wiring problem. Either you have arcing, or you have a condition that is fooling the AFCI into thinking that there is arcing. I remember reading somewhere (on these boards?) that a ground problem can cause the same effect as arcing and cause an AFCI to trip.
If you deterine that the problem is in your wiring not in the AFCI, and you are confident that the problem is not in one of the switches or outlets, then check the connections in all of your junction boxes on that circuit. However first you may want to find out whether you have GFCI outlets in your bathroom and whether GFCI's are compatible with AFCI breakers. ALso see whether someone cna tell you why AFCIs get false arc signals. THere is a reason, I just cannot remember what it is. (Other than a grounding problem, or arcing, I cannot imagine what it might be, but I do not remember how the AFCIs work - I knew once).
I had loads of problems with our AFCI breakers. One of the problems I worte about here, and someone told me how to fix it and it worked. I cannot figure out how to make the dumb search function work without getting hundreds of threads, but if you know how to search these boards, you may look for that thread. It was a long time ago and I do not remember the problem or the answer, just that there was one of several AFCI problems that I was able to resolve with advice from this site.
defective AFCI's are not common; electrician's that don't know how to properly troubleshoot them, however, are common.
you as the homeowner can remove the AFCI if you like, but your electrician legally cannot.
In all my years of using AFCI's, I've had exactly one fail. And it wasn't the AFCI protection that failed, but the trip mechanism.
Does the circuit breaker trip if nothing is connected to the circuit (nothing plugged into the walls, all lights off)?
If so, there is a problem in your wiring and the AFCI is pointing it out. Its most likely not dangerous, but AFCI's will find minor flaws.
I would raise unholy hell to your electrician until its fixed. If they cannot repair it, they should pay another electrician that knows what they're doing to fix it.
You need an electrician who knows what a megaohm meter is and how to use it. That is the only way to troubleshoot an AFCI protected circuit that has no visible indication as to why its tripping. The problem is most likely a ground-fault; AFCI's use gfci technology (at a high trip threshold than normal GFCI protection) as part of their design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens
However first you may want to find out whether you have GFCI outlets in your bathroom and whether GFCI's are compatible with AFCI breakers
Most likely it is the bathroom lighting on the AFCI, which is fine. The receptacles by code would not be allowed on that circuit; and yes, GFCI's work properly on an AFCI protected circuit.
defective AFCI's are not common; electrician's that don't know how to properly troubleshoot them, however, are common.
you as the homeowner can remove the AFCI if you like, but your electrician legally cannot.
In all my years of using AFCI's, I've had exactly one fail. And it wasn't the AFCI protection that failed, but the trip mechanism.
Does the circuit breaker trip if nothing is connected to the circuit (nothing plugged into the walls, all lights off)?
If so, there is a problem in your wiring and the AFCI is pointing it out. Its most likely not dangerous, but AFCI's will find minor flaws.
I would raise unholy hell to your electrician until its fixed. If they cannot repair it, they should pay another electrician that knows what they're doing to fix it.
You need an electrician who knows what a megaohm meter is and how to use it. That is the only way to troubleshoot an AFCI protected circuit that has no visible indication as to why its tripping. The problem is most likely a ground-fault; AFCI's use gfci technology (at a high trip threshold than normal GFCI protection) as part of their design.
Most likely it is the bathroom lighting on the AFCI, which is fine. The receptacles by code would not be allowed on that circuit; and yes, GFCI's work properly on an AFCI protected circuit.
As usual, right on the money. Second the suggestion that you get an old school Electrician in to check the circuit with a Megger.
For about a month now, the one for my entry from the garage, guest bathroom, and several wall receptacles trips on its own, without fail, after 20-40 minutes. There is no reason for this -- nothing is being turned on or off when this happens, ever.
House is under warranty. I've had them out twice now, and both times they've taken all the receptacles and switches out, looked them over, put them back in the walls, turned on the breaker, and pronounced it fixed. Both times I've left to go back to work thinking it was fixed, only to come home and find it tripped again. And resetting it gives proper function for the same 20-40 minutes before it's cut again.
Now I just want it to work.
--Can I replace it with a regular circuit breaker?
--What would I need to know to do that?
--Is it dangerous even if the main breaker is off?
--Is there any way to keep the AFCI but disable its constant tripping (the "protection")?
Thanks!
There are many reasons an AFCI can be tripping, including performing its intended function. These are two good articles relating to AFCI troubleshooting, and how they work.
From Square D a manufacturer of electrical equipment
http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Circuit%20Protection/Miniature%20Circuit%20Breakers/Arc%20Fault%20Circuit%20Interrupters%20%28AFCI%29/0760DB0204.pdf (broken link)
One item that neither discuss is also overloading from the heat generated by stacking multiple AFCI's on each other in the main breaker panel. The newer AFCI's have taken care of this problem, for the most part, but are still susceptible to some degree.
You can perform the basic troubleshooting that they list with disconnecting appliances from outets, checking their cords, etc. However, I would highly recommend against you removing outlets from walls, removing the deadfront panel cover on the main distribution panel, or trying to test outlets in any way except using normal plug in appliances. Electricity IS NOT something you want to deal with if you do not know how to.
Can an AFCI be replaced with a regular breaker? Yes it can, but why would you want to, especially in your case. First off unless you are an Electrician, know what you are doing, or have generally large cajones, You should not be doing that. Your home is under warranty and the AFCI is tripping. If you inspect your appliances, and use the simple troubleshooting techniques here just about the appliances and their cords, and the AFCI is still tripping then you have an issue that requires a properly trained person to evaluate. It is always possible as well that the AFCI is actually doing its job and not failing which would indicate a potential serious safety issue.
If your builder is giving you problems then possibly you should send a demand letter explaining that if it is not fixed you will hire your own Electrician to repair the problem, and expect the builder to pay for your Electrician and repairs.
Good luck on your situation and let us know what you finally find as the issue causing the AFCI to trip.
expect the builder to pay for your Electrician and repairs.
.
This is really helpful information except the statement above. If the builder will not accept their responsibility and come and fix it, you cannot reasonably expect that they will pay for the electrician and repairs. You cannot afford to sue them for $300 (except maybe in small claims court if you have a ton of time on your hands). You may be able to get somewhere by filing a complaint with your state contractors license board (depending on which state you live in). Otherwise, you should probably assume that you are going to be paying for this yourself.
I am not sure why you say not to try to test outlets any way but plugging in appliances. The simple outlet/GFCI testers that you can buy anywhere are very safe. They are no harder to use than anything else that you plug in and in fact are safer than appliance cords becuase they are shaped to allow you to grip them better and there is not chance of someone pulling on the cord rather than the plug (becuase there is not cord). They will tell you if the outlet has a grounding problem, whether the polarity is correct and they even have a button to push to test the GFCI if you need to. I love those things, they are great. IN fact, I sometimes have my kids plug them in for me if I need ot be downstairs. The other tool that is great is the beeper things that detect current even through insulation. You still need a meter for some testing, but those little beeper things can be really helpful to identify live wires (as long as you do not rely on them for safety - sometimes they fail to pick up current or they beep where there is no current). Another good one is the thing that you plug into an outlet and then run the other part over the breakers to find out which breaker an outlet is on. I never had that give me false information, and it is not more dangerous to use than plugging something in to an outlet.
Personally, I find electrical work easier to DIY than any other trade. It is all just logic and the application of a few simple rules/concepts that you need to understand. It is especially easy if you are working with new wiring rather than messing with live circuits. Unlike plumbing which always seems to leak for no reason, or carpentry which often seems to refuse to fit despite four times measuring, or to end up out of square despite your best efforts, electrical work always seems to produce the desired results as long as you follow the rules and apply logic. When our "professional" electrician abandoned us, I finshed the wiring of our house with help from our contractor (contractor set up the breaker box) and I had only 2 correction on inspection while the professional had 8 (which I had to correct) even though I wired 3/4 of our house or more.
I suppose that the big diffrence is the electricity can kill you or make a fire, while plumbing will only get you wet and carpentry will only make you angry and broke. However, again, understand how electricity works and you should never even get shocked.
I found some notes from some of our problems. The first problem was that all of the AFCI breakers kept tripping. The electricians who looked at it shrugged their shoulders. I had to figure it out with help from people on the internet. I think that the problem was a ground issue, but my writing is too messy to make out what exactly it was or how we solved it. I did make a note that some of the outlets could not be replaced and were not grounded outlets. Some others were grounded to a plumbing pipe. Somehow we fixed that concern and no longer had all of the AFCIs tripping.
Later we had two that kept tripping. Again there was head scratching and shrugged sholders.
We ended up replacing the two AFCI breakers and that problem was solved with the new breakers. I wonder if there was something else causing the problem? Any idea on a problem other than defective breakers that could get correct by replacing the AFCI breakers? (The box, all of the wiring and all of the outlets were new).
Again later, we had problems with them tripping when we plugged in certain items. One was a Roomba charger, one was a hair dryer, there was another thing, something of the kids. We solved that problem by plugging those things in elsewhere.
I do not remember the logic behind needing AFCI breakers only in bedrooms, it makes no sense to me. I hate these tthings, they are nothing but problems, however we have to leave them in becasue we do not have our permanent C of O.
Last edited by Coldjensens; 07-29-2010 at 10:55 AM..
I am not sure why you say not to try to test outlets any way but plugging in appliances.
I suppose that the big diffrence is the electricity can kill you
Hello Coldjensens,
Some people are capable of working with electricity even without formal training or very limited experience. Without knowing a persons background, skills, and comfort level I never recommend that anyone attempt to do more than testing with normal actions as described before. There ae issues that even more expensive test equipment you described won't find or isolate. For those times it is important that the person have some experience with electricity and electrical systems to prevent injuring themselves.
As for the demand letter issue, sometimes that is all it takes to get a builder to realize that they need to handle their responsibilities. It is also additional documentation displaying the builder's inability to service their buyers in the event a larger issue arises. Is it worth going to court over a few hundred dollars to have the builder to pay for repairs they fail to do? Maybe not but then the true problem is not known. If it is defective installation practices then there might well be other defective workmanship issues found by the Electrician the OP pays for. At that point it could become worth pursuing the other issues as well as far, and including, legal actions.
In any case, according to the OP, the home is under warranty. If the OP takes any actions themselves (instead of using a licensed Electrician) that cause further damage or injury I would expect they will void at a minimum the electrical portions of their warranty. In addition if they take no action and the issue is serious enough to cause damage or injury then their own insurance carrier might refuse a payout.
One item that neither discuss is also overloading from the heat generated by stacking multiple AFCI's on each other in the main breaker panel. The newer AFCI's have taken care of this problem, for the most part, but are still susceptible to some degree.
That's a good point, and one I had forgotten about, but there has been no mention of heat problems from any contractors i associate with. I remember there was an issue with Siemens AFCI's I believe, and I think they were 2-pole. An electrical contractor was having problems with this on an apartment building and that was the answer the manufacturer came back with. They were using 2-pole 50 AFCI's to feed the sub-panels in each unit. I've heard nothing of it since then. I suspect some of it could've been the size of the load on each circuit breaker. I do remember discussions about breaker staggering but i don't believe its an issue anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by escanlan
It is always possible as well that the AFCI is actually doing its job and not failing which would indicate a potential serious safety issue.
I'm not very confident that an arc-fault situation is present, simply because of the time it takes for the cb to trip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens
The simple outlet/GFCI testers that you can buy anywhere are very safe.
Yes, but the only approved method of testing an AFCI is by using the "test" button built into the circuit breaker. Each manufacturer uses a proprietary method for reading arc-fault signatures, so building a tester that would work properly on every brand, every time, would prove difficult.
there are AFCI testers available, but i would not recommend them as an accurate way to test.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens
Personally, I find electrical work easier to DIY than any other trade. It is all just logic and the application of a few simple rules/concepts that you need to understand.
any residential trade is monkey work, but i wouldn't recommend anyone jumping into it without know what they're doing.
a day on the job with me, however, would leave you scratching your head.
i actually hate plumbing the most of all residential work. had a few bad experiences in my home that probably could've been avoided with a little patience.
One last note about bad circuit breakers; as i've stated earlier, i've personally had no problems with faulty afci's. I have them on almost every circuit within my hown house (kitchen and some appliances excluded). The only recall I'm aware of on AFCI's is for the square D afci's w/ the blue test button. they were recalled for not tripping. 99% of the problems people experience w/ AFCI's are from the wiring, not the breaker.
Yes, but the only approved method of testing an AFCI is by using the "test" button built into the circuit breaker. Each manufacturer uses a proprietary method for reading arc-fault signatures, so building a tester that would work properly on every brand, every time, would prove difficult.
there are AFCI testers available, but i would not recommend them as an accurate way to test.
I was not suggesting outlet testers to determine AFCI problems, but merely coomenting on the statement that the OP shold only test outlets by plugging appliances into them. To me an outlet tester is a safer way to test outlets than to repeatedly plug and unplug an appliance.
I still cannot remember what good AFCIs actually do. I understand that they are supposed to trip if a plug sparks when you are unplugging it or plugging it in, and they will also trip if there is a short that is arcing (but so will a GFCI as far as I know), but do we really want to go to all this trouble and expense just to prevent sparks in our bedrooms? Has anyone ever been hurt or killed because a plug sparks while being unplugged? Why are they required only for bedroom outlets? Why only outlets? When I asked one electrician he said that they are required because the company that makes them has a good lobbiest. Just what is the logic behind requireing them in bedrooms?
I was not suggesting outlet testers to determine AFCI problems, but merely coomenting on the statement that the OP shold only test outlets by plugging appliances into them. To me an outlet tester is a safer way to test outlets than to repeatedly plug and unplug an appliance.
I think what he was trying to say is to connect and disconnect each appliance that is normally connected to the circuit to try and determine if the problem lies within an appliance. its a common testing procedure. i've seen problems in light fixtures also that cause an AFCI to trip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens
I still cannot remember what good AFCIs actually do. I understand that they are supposed to trip if a plug sparks when you are unplugging it or plugging it in, and they will also trip if there is a short that is arcing (but so will a GFCI as far as I know), but do we really want to go to all this trouble and expense just to prevent sparks in our bedrooms? Has anyone ever been hurt or killed because a plug sparks while being unplugged?
AFCI's look for arcing within the entire circuit, not sparks coming out of a receptacle. Among other things, failures of the wiring insulation can lead to arcing, as well as breaks in a wire that are not completely through allowing current to pass. The latest generation of AFCI's detect series and parallel arc conditions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens
Why are they required only for bedroom outlets? Why only outlets? When I asked one electrician he said that they are required because the company that makes them has a good lobbiest. Just what is the logic behind requireing them in bedrooms?
AFCI's trace their roots to the aviation industry. They have been used on commercial aircraft electrical systems for years. It was only 10 years ago that they started being manufactured for use in dwellings. The CMP decided to intially require them only in bedrooms because it can stop a fire before it starts while you're asleep, and they wanted to gradually work them into electrical systems to allow contractors time to understand how they work. They were aware of problems that could arise using them on circuits with appliances connected to them, and the bedroom seemed the least likely place to have problems.
The latest code cycle requires them throughout the entire home with a few exceptions such as small-appliance branch circuits, bathrooms, etc. .
The home builder's association was behind an effort to get them out of the code completely, and they succeded in keeping most areas on the '05 NEC code cycle that required them in bedrooms only, citing the "high cost" of circuit breakers. In a standard home, the cost will go up by approximately $300; small price to pay in my opinion.
As for the manufacturer's having a good lobbiest, well i'm sure that's true. The CMP (code making panel) is comprised of engineers, inspectors, contractors, and representatives from various equipment manufacturers. Of course they're always looking for a way to make more money, but i think these devices provide a true measure of safety as well.
The same arguments were made when GFCI's were introduced, and now anyone that knows what they are insists on having it installed, for the most part.
Like I said earlier, I've installed them throughout my home. If i felt it was a waste of money i certainly wouldn't have gone through the expense.
Sure people have problems using vaccum's and such on AFCI protected circuits, but its only that certain appliance create an arc when operated, and the device is doing its job. Manufacturers will have to start making appliances that work properly with them.
Did you know that the '08 NEC requires GFCI protection in ALL damp location devices now, no matter if they are dedicated for appliances? Anyone that's had a fridge in their garage knows what can happen when you connect it to a GFCI; its probably going to trip eventually. And that also includes garage door openers. The response of the CMP was that these appliances will have to be manufactured to such standards that won't trip the device.
Hope this answers your question!
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