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My real world experience has been that 2*6 construction uses 2/3 to 1/2 the energy as 2*4 construction and that's not just handful of people but from hundreds of homes. Overall the the construction and insulation in the 2*4 homes ceilings may not be as good as the 2*6 but you can't discount heat loss through the walls. If you had a room that no air can escape from and brought the temperature up 70 degrees with an electric heater that heat is going to rise with the air through convection. Once you turn the heater off the heat at the ceiling level is going to equilibriate throughout the room floor to ceiling. Assuming the same amount of insulation for the walls, ceiling and floor you're going to have an equal amount of heat loss for all of them.
Coalman,
First, the last thing I want to do is create a pissing contest!
Okay, in equal construction the 2x6 will provide a greater R value, but is not needed for any structural benefit unless it's supporting 2 floors above. The 2x6 itself costs more, and it costs more for the door frames being a non common size (jambs are typically made for a 2x4 stud wall). Fiberglass batts are R3.5 for every inch, but spray foam insulation is R7 for every inch. A 2x4 wall using spray foam could easily exceed the 2x6 wall if spray foam was used, and or be even greater with an EIFS stucco finish.
However, more emphasis IMHO should be paid to the ceiling. Currently in climate zone 5 we have R49 ceiling requirements, and R20 at the walls (there are exceptions of course). With heat loss being greater at the ceiling which area increase would provide a greater benefit to the consumer? Therefore, any argument about 2x4, or 2x6 to me is a moot point, because both can be made to meet the requirements so there's really little difference.
Sorry. Density-driven stratification exactly defines how I would describe warm and cold air behaving in a building.
This is one area I won't back down . My degree is in Mechanical Engineering with a focus on Thermo & Fluid Dynamics and I do industrial and commercial HVAC Engineering.
So you're the reason the opening size of fire dampers would change 3 times before they arrived on the job? My greatest pet peeve was having to redo these and not create a back charge.
So you're the reason the opening size of fire dampers would change 3 times before they arrived on the job? My greatest pet peeve was having to redo these and not create a back charge.
Luckily I've never had to change the opening size of a fire damper after it has been ordered. If the engineer changes it after a contractor bid and won the work though, a contractor should have easy grounds for a change order (depending on the type of contract). Additionally, usually there are extraneous factors that caused a duct size to change, that in turn caused the fire damper size to change. Things change a lot, usually from requests by the client after design was "finished."
If you want to REALLY see how changes in construction and insulation affect a building, energy modeling has become increasingly easy to do (at a high level) for a simple structure like a residential building. You'll quickly see what your heating and cooling is actually being driven by for an exact house location, orientation, and construction type. Then you can really start making calls on whether increasing wall insulation vs roof insulation makes sense in terms of return on investment. For example, on commercial buildings, some buildings reflective roofing makes sense while others it does not, some buildings window overhangs make sense while other buildings they do not (if you're talking purely about heating, cooling, and day-lighting and not aesthetics I mean), some buildings 2x the code insulation makes a lot of sense and others 1.25 does or some just meeting code makes sense.
Last edited by Sunbather; 01-22-2014 at 10:18 AM..
Coalman,
First, the last thing I want to do is create a pissing contest!
Okay, in equal construction the 2x6 will provide a greater R value, but is not needed for any structural benefit unless it's supporting 2 floors above. The 2x6 itself costs more, and it costs more for the door frames being a non common size (jambs are typically made for a 2x4 stud wall). Fiberglass batts are R3.5 for every inch, but spray foam insulation is R7 for every inch. A 2x4 wall using spray foam could easily exceed the 2x6 wall if spray foam was used, and or be even greater with an EIFS stucco finish.
However, more emphasis IMHO should be paid to the ceiling. Currently in climate zone 5 we have R49 ceiling requirements, and R20 at the walls (there are exceptions of course). With heat loss being greater at the ceiling which area increase would provide a greater benefit to the consumer? Therefore, any argument about 2x4, or 2x6 to me is a moot point, because both can be made to meet the requirements so there's really little difference.
Our main exterior door supplier has absolutely no issues with supplying a jamb for a 2x6 wall. Yes, it does cost more, $35.44 more than for a 2x4 wall, for a primed "Frame Saver" frame, but that is pennies of the overall cost of a normal project. And we can get door jambs any size on 1/16" increments between 4 9/16 and 6 9/16. Even less than 4 9/16 if needed. Up to 4 9/16 is one price. 4 9/16 to 5 1/4 is a little higher. 5 1/4 to 6 9/16 a bit higher. Over 6 9/16 are available by adding extension jambs. Aluminum Clad jambs are available up to 8 1/2 inches wide with no problems.
It is obvious from this information that I work at an independent building materials supplier and not a "big box store" And by the way, if you order that door with the special size jamb from us this afternoon, I could most likely have it here for you by noon on Monday. Can they do that at the "big box" places?
Our main exterior door supplier has absolutely no issues with supplying a jamb for a 2x6 wall. Yes, it does cost more, $35.44 more than for a 2x4 wall, for a primed "Frame Saver" frame, but that is pennies of the overall cost of a normal project. And we can get door jambs any size on 1/16" increments between 4 9/16 and 6 9/16. Even less than 4 9/16 if needed. Up to 4 9/16 is one price. 4 9/16 to 5 1/4 is a little higher. 5 1/4 to 6 9/16 a bit higher. Over 6 9/16 are available by adding extension jambs. Aluminum Clad jambs are available up to 8 1/2 inches wide with no problems.
It is obvious from this information that I work at an independent building materials supplier and not a "big box store" And by the way, if you order that door with the special size jamb from us this afternoon, I could most likely have it here for you by noon on Monday. Can they do that at the "big box" places?
I've done quite a few doors in my career, but mainly commercial. Only $35.44 an opening when building 100's of homes can make a difference in the value engineering of a large project. My original thought was more that the same R values can be achieved with a 2x4 using different methodology making the thread topic pointless is all.
Aren't jamb extension not allowed at the main entry? I thought it had to be one piece, but I could be mistaken. I was on a job years ago working 6 to 2:30. Semi showed up at 2;15 with 80 3-0x9-0's solid core. My partner and I had to hand unload them before we could go home. The next day we distributed them amongst 3 upper floors packing them upstairs by hand. I did a build out for Robert Half the payroll processor where we had more than 200 openings. Doing doors on this scale makes you fast. Have you heard of the Hinge Doctor the hinge bender? I worked with the guy who invented it.
Exterior walls of a 1600 sq ft house has an apx. run of 160 linear feet..The cost difference of 2x4 vs 2x6 is apx $2.00 a running ft or an initial cost of less than $350 dollars. Insulation cost will be apx $300 dollars more for r21 insulation over r13....In all the material cost is apx $650 to upgrade from a 2x4 r13 exterior wall to a 2x6 r21 exterior wall on a 1600 sq ft home.
One should also consider that that cost can be mitigated by elimination of a larger heating/cooling plant needed for a 2x4 exterior..From year one on, one will be more comfortable and saving on energy costs.....
Same holds for the basement/floor and the roof,,,especially the attic side of things.....
So theres the reasoning and the cost..
2x4's are for interior wall....It's 2015 not 1950.
Boy, am I glad I did 2x6 construction on a 700 sf office addition in 2001-2.
Addition, an office, designed to easily be a separate apartment one day.
Insulation between all interior walls for sound, also.
CO, btw...great in summer and winter.
Well in my city codes call for 1x3s with 36" spacing for exterior walls with 1/2 osb sheathing. I'm on the 5th floor (they built this 8 story condo using 1x3s with 36" spacing), and the building shakes when someone slams a door. Can even see the roof sagging a bit. When I fill my bathtub, the floor creaks so I don't fill it all the way up. And they built these last year. One thing I noticed is they didn't have permits and most of the crew were chinese.
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. My degree is in Mechanical Engineering with a focus on Thermo & Fluid Dynamics and I do industrial and commercial HVAC Engineering.
I'm not disagreeing with but I tend to think long term and rather spend it now if it's going to cost more 20 years down the road.
One should also consider that that cost can be mitigated by elimination of a larger heating/cooling plant needed for a 2x4 exterior..From year one on, one will be more comfortable and saving on energy costs.....
