Use of land outside fence line? (air conditioning, phone, loading, furniture)

[vllygrrl]

I wasn't sure where to post this question, so I decided to start here. My husband and I are purchasing our first home, a ranch with a full finished basement. The property has 2 driveways - a main, paved driveway that leads to the garage, at street level, and one on the other side of the home that leads to the backyard and deck. We have planned on pulling the moving truck up this second driveway, for ease of unloading our furniture, etc, since this is the driveway that goes to the main living area. In the future, we don't plan on using the driveway regularly, just for Costco trips and the like. Yesterday, our realtor got a phone call from the neighbors on that side of the house, telling her that we cannot use that driveway, because their property line extends two feet beyond their fence. Keep in mind, the driveway is definitely established - there is the flattened opening in the sidewalk to the street. Essentially, to reach the back yard, you would have to drive on their property for about 3 feet to go around the air conditioning unit. Their back yard is completely fenced - we have an old survey done by the current owners, and have ordered a new one through our attorney. On the survey that we have, it is difficult to tell where their property ends in relation to the fence. My question is, if this is truly the case, and they do own that 2 foot strip of property, what are the ramifications if once in a blue moon we drive our car on it to get to the back of the house? My husband is already gearing up for battle... I just can't believe that we haven't moved in yet, and already have difficult neighbors! My realtor said she asked how he got her number and he said he couldn't tell her that...

[iceshots]

Check your local laws. There is usually precedent set that covers the use or ownership of "abandoned" property. If it is property which they have not used and not maintained for a period of time (10 years?) there are routes to take to assume legal ownership.

However, since you are just moving in, you are a long way from that point.

In my opinion, your only options are to:

1) Ignore your neighbor, use the driveway and let them escalate if they want.
2) Don't use the driveway
3) Meet with them and find out what the problem is.

It could be that they are worried about the scenario I outlined above and are staking their claim.

Do you have an updated survey of the land? Are they correct?

If they claim ownership of the two feet of property outside of their fence, who is maintaining it? Them or you/old owners of your house?

[TexasHorseLady]

How old is the house, and was the driveway used by the previous owners? For how long? You'll need to check your local/state laws, but if they allowed use of the driveway without objecting for a certain period of time, it's entirely possible that you now have a fully legal easement there.

[akck]

I'd also have your Realtor check with the previous owners for the history and any past problems with the driveway and neighbors.

[marmac]

----" who is maintaining it?---

BINGO !

That is why I have posted many times that a fence should be built on property lines to avoid problems like this.

Yet on many forums, posters are advising people to build fences inside their property.

Just asking for trouble down the road ( IMHO)

[Faworki1947]

ask about easements as well.. if the drive way is already in place then likely there is an easement .. do a title search for easement restrictions .. I'm betting the neighbors are blowing sand since your new and they think you might junk up the driveway with junkers and toys that they dont wanna see ..
2 foot hummm? leaves you six foot for a boat and a basketball court for the kids ....
use it anyways ..

[CHTransplant]

Here's a weird idea: Why not talk to the neighbors first?

[Cosmic]

I think lots of bad advice being given.

You have to do the legwork and understand exactly how the driveway got in its present position. The part about getting possession of it is probably far more tricky, if a slice of it is not actually yours. Adverse possession probably is not the best approach.

The part to also understand is surveys are not "Absolute". There is always + / - factors involved. Survey margin of errors are common. My own property was just resurveyed recently, I gained 3 foot on one side, due to neighboring survery required to build a property three doors down. A lot of this depends on where and how the survey are started / use of starting benchmarks. In general the further away you are from a major baseline, the worse the accuracy of any given survey.

So if you get into some type of "Battle of the surveys" the property lines might get moved, to include against your own interest. Plus it might get out of hand expense wise. Once the lawyers get turned loose who knows what the outcome might be.

I might use a more common sense approach. Not attempt to use the driveway very early on. Get to know the neighbors over some time period. Then attempt to work out some sort of understanding with the soft peddle method. Never throw it up as a "Take or Leave it type Approach" with all sorts of legal ramifications. Leave lawyers and surveryors alone if possible. Settle it within acceptable limits between neighbors. But after you are on better speaking terms.

In the mean time do a better job of homework to know exactly what the property lines are. Many developments, individual lot lines are very poorly surveyed in terms of being based on major benchmark survey points for a particular area. Getting a survey based on some major reference point might not be cheap. The reference points used by the developers are well known to be a bit shaky in far too many cases. The term "More or Less" to describe any lot size should be well taken with a grain of salt. Few surveys are absolute in placing lines exactly, especially if they use more local benchmarks. Surveys in the main are approximate within some tolerance of error. Do not jump into any property line dispute believing otherwise.

[harry chickpea]

Cos is right, as usual.

My guess is that you don't read many mysteries. How would neighbor not only know the phone number of realtor, but that you are planning to use that side to unload? My guess is the current owner has been chatty.

Whenever I have purchased property it has been with a new survey AND property insurance. I HOPE you haven't bought without recourse if the property lines are not as described in the listing. I'd be AT A MINIMUM, demanding a price reduction or I would walk. I might walk anyway if I was lied to.

However, with a good survey and property insurance in hand, you can pee on the edge of your property with impunity. If neighbor wants to fight, you turn it over to the company insuring the title and sit back to watch the fireworks. Neener neener.

FWIW, you likely could do a quick check by getting a metal detector and searching for stobs. I wouldn't bother. I'd be making the seller and agents lives miserable.

[Cosmic]

We don't know enough about this situation or even where it is.

In my last neighborhood in New England, you could just about guess all the property lines were "Wrong" if pressed hard enough.

You have to go back into history to understand a lot of it. My old lot and the general area, if you took a super good big land area like between several major roads. I had that situation. Add up all the square feet in the total area by modern mapping methods. Then add up all the deeded square feet in that area. Deeded square feet might be 1.2 (or more) the actual number of square feet on the ground . Hence the idea of "More or Less". But in that same neighborhood, the major survey line from the land grant major ancient land division ran within several hundred feet. From that they had shot and located the local benchmark reference point in like 1929 into a "Gold Nail" spot in a stone wall.

All development of lots were reference back to that spot. But it even got more complicated. In the 1970's they resurvey the major lines and find the line in our area is off like ten feet running at an angle passed thru the area. Duh, everything is in "Error". Any survey can be correct and still wrong. What a can of worms if you ever choose to open it. In effect if you fought hard enough, the guy with the most money probably would win. Last guy standing theory.

In the midwest and much of the rest of the country, the lines might be better, township and section lines but you probably can still get into similar situations. More modern developments may not be any better in terms of the Catch-22 situations. Lawyer pure heaven, full employment act.

I'm not sure any of that insurance would be good in those messy situations. Survey is only good until the next guy does it. I would not be putting that much faith in paperwork.

To me, common sense has to rule the day. Never get into a peeing contest that only others can win. It can be a very expensive lesson when push comes to shove. I'm not sure the other guy will protect you like they sezs.

Just understand the mess you sometimes can get into. Understand the local situation better than the guy next door. Never get real shrill or uppie-T on something so unimportant in the long run. Remember them lawyer boys always tell you that you have a Great Case, they need the money.