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This whole subject is a hot button for me. I've kept at explaining, to the point I no longer try to dance around the niceties.
People who play follow the leader are idiots. Some doofus, somewhere, thought "Gee, I'll turn the water temp down in my water heater and save money." It got picked up by the Carter administration and touted as patriotic during the energy "crisis" (don't get me started...) Where, exactly, is that savings supposed to come from? If you are used to taking a ten minute shower at 100 degrees, and you have the shower on as strong as it goes, it doesn't mean Jack if you turn your water heater lower. You'll have to adjust the mixer valve to use MORE heated water to mix with the cold. That is simple junior high physics.
The ONLY difference is the few pennies saved because the insulation of the tank and pipes aren't perfect. That means the quart or so of water left in the lines after taking a shower will push more heat into the surrounding area. Big flippin deal.
I've typed it so many times my fingers are sore. I'VE DONE THE MATH. The ONLY cost effective technique that doesn't involve changing usage patterns is to insulate the four feet of pipe coming out of the heater. Water heaters have decent insulation these days. The payback period for a blanket of added insulation is a LONG time. The payback period of a timer is even longer.
Cosmic, you are wrong on this one about bacteria. Legionnaire growth is unsafe between roughly 65 degrees to about 122 degrees. IMO anyone who turns their heater to lower than 130 is a bloomin' idiot, especially if the heater is within an area that will be heated anyway. Yeah, there is minor growth outside the range, and there are other bacteria that can live at more extreme temps, but those other bacteria are not generally pathogenic. I'm certified in food safety, and the cold or above 155 rule is pounded into us relentlessly. Any restaurant that ran their heater at such a low temp and tried to sanitize dishes using it would be required to dose the water with chemicals, or would be shut down.
If you want to save money on hot water, put a flow restrictor in your showerhead. Reduce the pressure setting on the valve that sets your house pressure to 45 psi or less. Set your cutoff valves so that a wide open hot faucet isn't blasting out water. Leave the setting on the water tank at 130 or above.
To show you how STUPID this really gets, I have seen people dutifully turn the temp down on their 40 gallon heater "to save money" (as told by others) and then realize they don't have the water for their normal showers. What do they do? Rather than turn the damm setting back up, they buy a new 80 gallon tank and pay for installation on top of it, spending at least $500. Since the 80 gallon tank has more surface area, even though they have the water set an ecologically "sound" 120 degrees, they are LOSING money every day compared to having their old tank at 140 or higher. Idiots. The only green they are showing is the mold on their brains.
Phish Head - at 18 cents per KWH, you are going to have to start thinking in terms of payback periods and making decisions based on that. If you know you will be in the house for a couple of years, use that as the payback period and get a home improvement loan to cover the cost. No way would I use resistance electric heat in that climate. Consider either natural gas or propane. Figure out the cost per therm or btu from the various options and go from there.
Well I've got a problem because my whole house, including basement, is resistive baseboard heating and I'm up to my eyeballs on my mortgage alone. Solar won't work here, and again, due to finances, I can't afford a wood or coal stove installed right now.
I don't know anything about geothermal- I'm going to look into it. I don't believe that is a common option in this region. I could be wrong, I've just never heard of anyone heating there home around here that way. Solar is pretty rare too, its always cloudy here.
I'm not whining, as you say, I'm genuinely asking a question on how to reduce my electric bills.
IS there anything that can be done working with what I have? Is Hydrosil a better baseboard choice?
I LOVE my geo system. It heats, cools and is our hot water. That being said, I will never recover the money it took to put in. It was just a "want".
Cosmic, you are wrong on this one about bacteria. Legionnaire growth is unsafe between roughly 65 degrees to about 122 degrees. IMO anyone who turns their heater to lower than 130 is a bloomin' idiot
Never heard of hot water heater being a prime cause of Legionnaires.
I guess I ain't at risk because in summer I set mine to ~145F and crank it up in winter to over 160F. I need the heat because the basement has no other source of direct heat, the register off the furnace doesn't exactly do the job.
Nice to know I ain't a bloomin' idiot tho.
Turning down the hot water heater usually ain't going to be the solution to most energy saving schemes anyway. Real cold periods I got to put a heat lamp in the basement, sucker hot water heater will not lose enough heat to do the job.
Back to subject at hand, the OP can get a handle on the costs by something like this calculator.
He is paying at least double what most other common heating sources would cost. Probably sneaking on toward $60 million / BTU's.
I haven't looked into geo thermal myself very hard because I really do not want to keep the present shack longer term. My county passed a school bond to build just about all new schools. One of the prime selling points was the utility costs for the old schools were out of sight. The state picked up like 70% of the total but the savings by going to a very modern geo thermal based system was very compelling. We will get nicked a bit on the tax bill but it all had to happen at some point. Having that sort of energy security and being immune to some point from rising energy costs is a huge argument for going with more modern methods.
OP, so long as you stick with the baseboard heat, as a first approximation, ALL of your energy efficiency efforts - CFL lightbulbs, high-efficiency fridge, etc, have NO effect during the heating season, because the BTU's you don't get from light bulbs, the old fridge, etc. are made up by the base board heaters, at EXACTLY the same 3412.141156488 BTU per Killowatt-hour. I say first approximation because a light bulb in a ceiling fixture probably will lose more of it's heat to the outside of the house quicker than the baseboard heaters will.
Now in summer you do get some benefit from the CFLs etc. reducing the heat load in your house.
At 18 cents per KWh, a geothermal system or even an ordinary heat pump probably makes sense. Or, go to a coal or wood stove for at least part of your heat. And, insulate, tighten the house as much as you can.
Hey Cosmic, I too am glad to know you're not a bloomin' idiot. Din't figure you were anyway.
M3 Mitch - SPOT ON!
I really hesitate to mention this, because they aren't something people are used to anymore, but during the coldest parts of the winter, I augment both heat and light by using kerosene lamps. If the kerosene doesn't have water mixed in, it is clean burning, certainly more than candles, and the costs of startup are minimal. That said...
Whenever you have a portable open flame, you are ASKING for trouble. You have to be almost insanely paranoid of fire to use something like this safely.
Second thought - propane. We have a propane cooktop that I also use to help heat, and take pressure off the heat pump on really cold days. Again, I'm paranoid of fire so I don't go wandering off. We've been here over a year and a half, and during that entire time have used only 100 gallons of propane. Making soups and slow cooking midwinter is just natural.
You can get a corn or pellet stove apparently they might be a good fit to cut your electric bill. Initial cost of the stoves are not that high.
Some can apparently be a thru the wall type vent. Hear they work pretty good. Know some folks in my area use them. Corn is available local, feed store down the road. Pellets I think are sold by the bag.
I hear they also are clean burning with minimum ash.
Try some of the CFL's if you haven't already. I know some people don't like them but for $.18/kwh you should make yourself adjust or even better LED's.
This whole subject is a hot button for me. I've kept at explaining, to the point I no longer try to dance around the niceties.
People who play follow the leader are idiots. Some doofus, somewhere, thought "Gee, I'll turn the water temp down in my water heater and save money." It got picked up by the Carter administration and touted as patriotic during the energy "crisis" (don't get me started...) Where, exactly, is that savings supposed to come from? If you are used to taking a ten minute shower at 100 degrees, and you have the shower on as strong as it goes, it doesn't mean Jack if you turn your water heater lower. You'll have to adjust the mixer valve to use MORE heated water to mix with the cold. That is simple junior high physics.
The ONLY difference is the few pennies saved because the insulation of the tank and pipes aren't perfect. That means the quart or so of water left in the lines after taking a shower will push more heat into the surrounding area. Big flippin deal.
I've typed it so many times my fingers are sore. I'VE DONE THE MATH. The ONLY cost effective technique that doesn't involve changing usage patterns is to insulate the four feet of pipe coming out of the heater. Water heaters have decent insulation these days. The payback period for a blanket of added insulation is a LONG time. The payback period of a timer is even longer.
Cosmic, you are wrong on this one about bacteria. Legionnaire growth is unsafe between roughly 65 degrees to about 122 degrees. IMO anyone who turns their heater to lower than 130 is a bloomin' idiot, especially if the heater is within an area that will be heated anyway. Yeah, there is minor growth outside the range, and there are other bacteria that can live at more extreme temps, but those other bacteria are not generally pathogenic. I'm certified in food safety, and the cold or above 155 rule is pounded into us relentlessly. Any restaurant that ran their heater at such a low temp and tried to sanitize dishes using it would be required to dose the water with chemicals, or would be shut down.
If you want to save money on hot water, put a flow restrictor in your showerhead. Reduce the pressure setting on the valve that sets your house pressure to 45 psi or less. Set your cutoff valves so that a wide open hot faucet isn't blasting out water. Leave the setting on the water tank at 130 or above.
To show you how STUPID this really gets, I have seen people dutifully turn the temp down on their 40 gallon heater "to save money" (as told by others) and then realize they don't have the water for their normal showers. What do they do? Rather than turn the damm setting back up, they buy a new 80 gallon tank and pay for installation on top of it, spending at least $500. Since the 80 gallon tank has more surface area, even though they have the water set an ecologically "sound" 120 degrees, they are LOSING money every day compared to having their old tank at 140 or higher. Idiots. The only green they are showing is the mold on their brains.
Yikes- that was harsh. I'd like to think of myself as semi-intelligent, but I'm relatively new at this, and I get conflicting information depending on who is trying to sell which heating source. Also, when I bought this property, I was able to see the last year utility bills, and they were about $200 a month in winter- certainly an amount I can deal with in this climate and easily on par with oil or propane. Later on I found out that the previous owner had another home in his wife's name and kept the heater set at 50 degrees all winter. Hence the low bills. Also why we have had to make huge plumbing repairs upon moving in. Thats another story for another day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch
OP, so long as you stick with the baseboard heat, as a first approximation, ALL of your energy efficiency efforts - CFL lightbulbs, high-efficiency fridge, etc, have NO effect during the heating season, because the BTU's you don't get from light bulbs, the old fridge, etc. are made up by the base board heaters, at EXACTLY the same 3412.141156488 BTU per Killowatt-hour. I say first approximation because a light bulb in a ceiling fixture probably will lose more of it's heat to the outside of the house quicker than the baseboard heaters will.
Now in summer you do get some benefit from the CFLs etc. reducing the heat load in your house.
At 18 cents per KWh, a geothermal system or even an ordinary heat pump probably makes sense. Or, go to a coal or wood stove for at least part of your heat. And, insulate, tighten the house as much as you can.
18 cents. Ouch!
You ain't kidding. Speaking of heat pumps, are they practical in our climate? I hear very little about them except that they have been historically used down South, and not a lot north of Maryland or so. Our climate here is the same as Northeastern Pennsylvania since we are in a mountainous area. Winter lows can be below 0 degrees and it tends to be windy. We also don't get a lot of sunlight and have many coniferous trees on the property which heavily shade the house. Great in summer but not in winter.
ANyone have experience with Hydrosil baseboard heating? It may be the only thing I can afford right now.
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I don't know about that one Harry.
