Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I was sitting here pondering about this and note while I've visited Houston a good few times this year, I know generally nothing about the flooding issues asside from the fact that it has accelerated due to excessive paving over flood plains and preventing the ground from absorbing water. I've heard that one of the first things to flood are Houston's freeways. I'm guessing the sub-grade provides a route to where water generally wants to flow and of course, concrete cannot absorb water which by accident also created 'water ways' during heavy rain periods which diverges water away from inhabitants, which is fine so long as they stay off the highway... -- thats if this is true however.
I was sitting here with too much time on my hands just pondering - what would happen if they built submerged uncovered aqueducts underneith Houstons major freeways and major roads. It would function much like a double decked road suspended in the air by horizontal beams meeting level grade at either side of the road. The aqueduct would sit directly below it in the shape of a U which in turn could diverge water to more open flood plains or possibly a collection of large reserviors for future use (feel free to pump it to Austin).
As hyperbolic as this may sound, could something like this 'save' Houston or at the very least slow the progression of extensive flooding damages?
Are those making a noticable impact on the flooding issues?
In the areas where they are located, yes. The storm sewers placed under Shepherd between Westheimer and Allen Parkway are 7 feet in diameter. The old ones were more like 3 feet. That means water is removed from neighborhoods faster.
I have also noticed, in the Northwest area at least, Slabs are being elevated to at least 4 to 6' tall for new businesses and retention ponds are being Placed next to businesses to allow water that would have originally been able to soak into the soil to fill up the retention pond
A bigger underground waterway could help relieve pressure from the dams up the bayou in another Harvey-like flood in the future.
While they're already digging, they can go ahead and put an underground rail line running at least to the Galleria from Down/Midtown somewhere, basically running under Westheimer much of the way.
With engineers working at a feverish pace to get more than 200 projects in its $2.5 billion bond program moving, much of the Flood Control District’s efforts are focused on nuts-and-bolts improvements — including widening bayous, digging detention basins and purchasing flood prone homes.
From his cramped office at district headquarters, however, engineer Scott Elmer is pursuing the most ambitious project the agency has ever conceived: massive tunnels that could funnel stormwater beneath the region’s bayou network to the Houston Ship Channel.
The tunnels could provide a crucial new tool to complement existing flood control methods, as new development in fast-growing Harris County and more intense storms wrought by climate change place additional pressure on infrastructure.
“When you look at events such as Hurricane Harvey and Tropical Storm Imelda, it’s time for that type of out-of-the-box thinking,” Elmer said.
The flood control district has considered tunnels since the 1990s, though plans have never advanced beyond paper. Since Harvey in 2017, which flooded more than 200,000 county residences and damaged many of the district’s defenses, the county has revisited the idea.
A study engineers completed in October reached two important conclusions — that tunnels feasibly could be constructed and they could move substantial amounts of stormwater that otherwise could pool in neighborhoods or push bayous over their banks. Encouraged by the results, the district has begun a second phase of research, which over the next year will map one to five possible routes. A third one-year phase would include a geotechnical analysis to evaluate construction challenges.
Elmer said the district will look for paths along public rights of way, including freeways and utility corridors, since buying private land is time-consuming and expensive. He estimated the tunnels would be 25 to 40 feet in diameter.
Tunnels have worked to protect other cities. Austin and San Antonio have them; Dallas is building one. Harris County engineers are studying the new 2.3-mile Anacostia River Tunnel in Washington, noting that city also sits on a coastal plain.
The sheer volume of water Harris County’s tunnels would need to transport, however, sets the Houston area apart. Harvey dumped 51 inches of rain on some parts of Harris County, more than Washington receives in an average year.
Elmer said his team has yet to determine precisely how much of a benefit tunnels would provide, though he cautioned there is no flood protection measure that can fully protect the county.
“We don’t view these tunnels as a standalone,” he said. “We believe there will always be a role for some of the more traditional methods. The tunnels would be a benefit in some areas.”
The biggest obstacle to building tunnels is likely to be the cost.
At a price tag of about $100 million per mile, even a single 20-mile route connecting the Addicks and Barker reservoirs to the ship channel would cost around $2 billion. Elmer said Harris County would have to seek funding from the state and federal governments, perhaps as a supplement to a bond passed by voters.
Those potential partners, however, have a mixed record when it comes to helping Houston protect against flooding. The state refused to immediately tap its $10 billion Rainy Day Fund after Harvey. Congressional funding lapses for Project Brays caused significant delays to improvements along that bayou.
Should the flood control district solve the funding problem, Elmer said engineers could submit a tunnel construction plan to Commissioners Court within two to three years.
The cost of flood tunnels draws comparisons to the Ike ****, a 70-mile-long coastal barrier aimed at protecting the Houston-Galveston region — particularly Houston Ship Channel industries — from storm surges from the Gulf of Mexico. The Army Corps of Engineers in October proposed a version of the plan that could cost as much as $31 billion, two to three times more than initial estimates. The plan did not explain how the massive endeavor would be funded.
Elmer said tunnels could provide more immediate benefits for Houston and Harris County home and business owners. For one, tunnels can be completed in stages, and new branches added when needed and when funding becomes available.
Local leaders have given the flood tunnel idea qualified support. Harris County Judge Lina Hidalgo, who has urged departments to be innovative, said she would support the project so long as it remains practical and funding partners can be secured. Houston Mayor Sylvester Turner has said local funds are not enough for robust flood protection, noting how FEMA support is critical to building the North Canal project.
Experts also offer cautious approval. Jim Blackburn, co-director of the Severe Storm Prediction, Education, and Evacuation from Disasters Center at Rice University, long has urged Harris County to more aggressively approach flood control. Tunnels are a bold idea, he said, so long as they do not exacerbate flooding downstream.
“What I’m concerned about is that in an effort to keep the cost down, they may attempt to terminate it in an area that may already be congested, from a water standpoint,” Blackburn said.
Susan Chadwick, executive director of advocacy group Save Buffalo Bayou, panned the tunnel idea. She said the enormous sum of money needed to construct them would be more wisely spent purchasing undeveloped land in west Harris County, which acts like a sponge during rainstorms.
Cynthia Neely, an advisory board member with Residents Against Flooding, echoed Blackburn’s comments about ensuring tunnels do not make flooding in other areas worse. She said tunnels may be expensive, but would be a worthwhile investment over the long term.
“Anything we do is going to be far less than what we pay, and what all Americans pay to bail us out, over and over again,” Neely said.
With engineers working at a feverish pace to get more than 200 projects in its $2.5 billion bond program moving, much of the Flood Control District’s efforts are focused on nuts-and-bolts improvements — including widening bayous, digging detention basins and purchasing flood prone homes.
From his cramped office at district headquarters, however, engineer Scott Elmer is pursuing the most ambitious project the agency has ever conceived: massive tunnels that could funnel stormwater beneath the region’s bayou network to the Houston Ship Channel.
The tunnels could provide a crucial new tool to complement existing flood control methods, as new development in fast-growing Harris County and more intense storms wrought by climate change place additional pressure on infrastructure.
“When you look at events such as Hurricane Harvey and Tropical Storm Imelda, it’s time for that type of out-of-the-box thinking,” Elmer said.
The flood control district has considered tunnels since the 1990s, though plans have never advanced beyond paper. Since Harvey in 2017, which flooded more than 200,000 county residences and damaged many of the district’s defenses, the county has revisited the idea.
A study engineers completed in October reached two important conclusions — that tunnels feasibly could be constructed and they could move substantial amounts of stormwater that otherwise could pool in neighborhoods or push bayous over their banks. Encouraged by the results, the district has begun a second phase of research, which over the next year will map one to five possible routes. A third one-year phase would include a geotechnical analysis to evaluate construction challenges.
Elmer said the district will look for paths along public rights of way, including freeways and utility corridors, since buying private land is time-consuming and expensive. He estimated the tunnels would be 25 to 40 feet in diameter.
Tunnels have worked to protect other cities. Austin and San Antonio have them; Dallas is building one. Harris County engineers are studying the new 2.3-mile Anacostia River Tunnel in Washington, noting that city also sits on a coastal plain.
The sheer volume of water Harris County’s tunnels would need to transport, however, sets the Houston area apart. Harvey dumped 51 inches of rain on some parts of Harris County, more than Washington receives in an average year.
Elmer said his team has yet to determine precisely how much of a benefit tunnels would provide, though he cautioned there is no flood protection measure that can fully protect the county.
“We don’t view these tunnels as a standalone,” he said. “We believe there will always be a role for some of the more traditional methods. The tunnels would be a benefit in some areas.”
The biggest obstacle to building tunnels is likely to be the cost.
At a price tag of about $100 million per mile, even a single 20-mile route connecting the Addicks and Barker reservoirs to the ship channel would cost around $2 billion. Elmer said Harris County would have to seek funding from the state and federal governments, perhaps as a supplement to a bond passed by voters.
Those potential partners, however, have a mixed record when it comes to helping Houston protect against flooding. The state refused to immediately tap its $10 billion Rainy Day Fund after Harvey. Congressional funding lapses for Project Brays caused significant delays to improvements along that bayou.
Should the flood control district solve the funding problem, Elmer said engineers could submit a tunnel construction plan to Commissioners Court within two to three years.
The cost of flood tunnels draws comparisons to the Ike ****, a 70-mile-long coastal barrier aimed at protecting the Houston-Galveston region — particularly Houston Ship Channel industries — from storm surges from the Gulf of Mexico. The Army Corps of Engineers in October proposed a version of the plan that could cost as much as $31 billion, two to three times more than initial estimates. The plan did not explain how the massive endeavor would be funded.
Elmer said tunnels could provide more immediate benefits for Houston and Harris County home and business owners. For one, tunnels can be completed in stages, and new branches added when needed and when funding becomes available.
Local leaders have given the flood tunnel idea qualified support. Harris County Judge Lina Hidalgo, who has urged departments to be innovative, said she would support the project so long as it remains practical and funding partners can be secured. Houston Mayor Sylvester Turner has said local funds are not enough for robust flood protection, noting how FEMA support is critical to building the North Canal project.
Experts also offer cautious approval. Jim Blackburn, co-director of the Severe Storm Prediction, Education, and Evacuation from Disasters Center at Rice University, long has urged Harris County to more aggressively approach flood control. Tunnels are a bold idea, he said, so long as they do not exacerbate flooding downstream.
“What I’m concerned about is that in an effort to keep the cost down, they may attempt to terminate it in an area that may already be congested, from a water standpoint,” Blackburn said.
Susan Chadwick, executive director of advocacy group Save Buffalo Bayou, panned the tunnel idea. She said the enormous sum of money needed to construct them would be more wisely spent purchasing undeveloped land in west Harris County, which acts like a sponge during rainstorms.
Cynthia Neely, an advisory board member with Residents Against Flooding, echoed Blackburn’s comments about ensuring tunnels do not make flooding in other areas worse. She said tunnels may be expensive, but would be a worthwhile investment over the long term.
“Anything we do is going to be far less than what we pay, and what all Americans pay to bail us out, over and over again,” Neely said.
Yes the North and US bail these cities out. Then their States still do incentives to lure businesses their way.
Chicago -- did the flood tunnel nearing full completion after 40-years. It cost billions basically they had to pay. No hurricane prompted it. It was to spare Lake Michigan especially and Chicago river..... sewer overflows and runoff from streets. Both using the same combined drainage as many older cities did and areas basements could flood.
Called the Deep-Tunnel and Reservoir Plan. The $4 billion Tunnel and Reservoir Plan (TARP), better known as “The Deep Tunnel,” is the Metropolitan Water Reclamation District of Greater Chicago's answer to water pollution and sewer backup problems in 52 municipalities in Cook County. The MWRD adopted TARP in 1972 as the Chicago area’s plan to cost-effectively comply with Federal and State water quality standards in the 375 square miles combined sewer area consisting of Chicago and 51 suburbs.
From link:
- according to the Metropolitan Water Reclamation District of Greater Chicago, the agency that built and runs the project, the tunnels and reservoirs protect 1.5 million structures from flooding, in addition to keeping sewage out of Lake Michigan and the Chicago River.
- though not quite finished (the tunnels are done, the reservoirs are not),
- the scheme has been and is being imitated in cities like Milwaukee, St. Louis, D.C., London, and Guangzhou, where the concept, 50 years after it was undertaken in Chicago, is seen as the state-of-the-art solution to flooding damage and water pollution.
- the Government Accountability Office estimated Chicago was sustaining nearly $100 million in flood damage every year -- not counting the cost of pollution. The MWRD thought it was closer to $200 million. - - Chicago sewers were emptying into the river 100 days a year, overwhelmed by as little as a third of an inch of rain.
- when it rains in Chicago (or New York, or virtually any prewar metropolis with “combined sewers”), every drop that goes down a drain mixes with sewage.
The $4 billion Tunnel and Reservoir Plan (TARP), better known as “The Deep Tunnel,” is the Metropolitan Water Reclamation District of Greater Chicago's answer to water pollution and sewer backup problems in 52 municipalities in Cook County.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
