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I could see it being good in a way - I mean, we have "mediators" to help avoid long, expensive legal processes. One problem I'd see is that ideally, religion is evolving - growing with the peoples' "good news" ("gospel")/new perspectives. Yet, to effectively maintain this type of court, might mean holding people back, to old judgments. IE: Consider the law of moses & how you'd get in trouble for walking too many steps on the Sabbath.
I can't see the marriage contract being redefined to be specifically Christian, or any other religion & not legal. Unless you lived in a cult, where there was the risk of major social shunning or punishment, many would probably care less about marital commitments, especially if/when they leave the religion. Like they say, "If all men were angels, we wouldn't need laws." Also, there are too many cases of abuse (either spousal or parental) that would get held up because of the requirement of finding "fault" when some types of fault are hard to substantiate legally.
The basic idea is that religious law covers a lot of things that are civil in nature, Rules about charging interest, rules about when a divorce is acceptable, things like that. As a non believer I don't want to be bound by any religion's rules on divorce, but I understand that some believers would like their doctrine baked by law. Reframing it in term of contract law allows them to have legal weight to their doctrine, while insuring it only affects them.
An example I like and dislike is Louisiana's Covenant Marriage. I like the idea, a religiously based definition of marriage that restricts divorce and can only be entered into voluntarily by both parties. I dislike it because it is a state sanctioned second form of marriage, and is only offering one vision of marriage ( specifically one based on Christian doctrine). I think if they allowed other religious ( and non-religious) groups to tailor their own marriage agreements, it would allow each group to legally define marriage according to their own traditions, at least to an extent.
I do not think any contract or civil agreement should be able to supercede criminal law. For example, I don't think that you should be able to form an agreement that forces one partner to submit to physical assault or rape. I do think there is a lot about marriage that could defined this way. It would keep us from wasting a lot of court and legislative time trying to decide exactly a marriage should be.
Woodrow LI: Pardon my ignorance, but what is a 'Nikkah'?
No problem, I should have explained. The Nikkah is the marriage contract. It is initiated by either party and sent back and forth with each either accepting it, rejecting it or adding clauses. The processs can be either almost instant, such as if both accept the first offering or it can take several years. But, once both the potential groom and bride are in agreement a date and place is set for the signing. Both bring their own witnesses. When it is signed, by the couple and the witnesses, it is a legal binding contract and that is the marriage.
The Nikkah can be quite complex. Both parties need to put in everything they expect from the marriage and state specifically what they will contribute to the marriage and how in the event of a divorce what settlements will be made.
Typically three identical originals will be made and all three signed. The Bride keeps one copy, the Groom keeps one and the third is given to a neutral party to hold, often this will be the Imam of the nearest Mosque.
For the first part Both UK and US laws would prevent that. Actually a woman would fair better under sharia provided she writes her Nikkah properly and understands her rights in marriage. There are unscrupulous Muslim men who forbid their wives to read the Qur'an out of fear they may learn their rights.. Typically there is no community property in a Muslim Marriage. Except for the husbands personal belongings like clothing, the house and all in it belong to the wife, but the husband is responsible for the financial obligations.
Thanks for your perspective on this, Woodrow.
Are these Sharias (Muslim courts) literally overseen by UK law (someone there to make sure all is in order)?
If not, how would they know if anything was done against their law?
If the husband is responsible for financial obligations... does that mean he also gets all financial assets if they divorce - even money made by the wife?
Another thing I've wondered...
My friend was telling me how she could not be a lone with a man and that usually the way someone marries is by arrangement - a family member usually will suggest someone & then they will have to have a chaperone to accompany them while dating & up until marriage.
Do Muslims still go primarily by arranged marriage?
Are these Sharias (Muslim courts) literally overseen by UK law (someone there to make sure all is in order)?
If not, how would they know if anything was done against their law?
If the husband is responsible for financial obligations... does that mean he also gets all financial assets if they divorce - even money made by the wife?
Another thing I've wondered...
My friend was telling me how she could not be a lone with a man and that usually the way someone marries is by arrangement - a family member usually will suggest someone & then they will have to have a chaperone to accompany them while dating & up until marriage.
Do Muslims still go primarily by arranged marriage?
Peace Super Soul,
I can not say about the UK but here in the USA civil laws do not over ride criminal laws. If something is illegal in criminal law it wil still be illegal even if it is not violating any civil law.
A man is responsible for all financial obligation no matter how much income the wife has. A man can not touch any money, jewelry or other personal posessions a wife has, which usually includes the house and all furnishings. Even in the event of a divorce. The only time a man has any possibility of a financial settlement in a divorce is if the divorce is because of adultry on her part. Even then it is limited. Normally in the event of a divorce the wife gets everything and has to be supported by the Husband until she remarries.
However, this will depend on the Nikkah. If the husband puts in the Nikkah that the wife give up her rights to a divorce settlement in the event of divorce and she agrees to it and signs the Nikkah, she is bound by that.
Although it is called arrainged marriage it is more often then not that the women initiates the contacts. She may mention to her Father or older brother that she is interested in so and so to get things started. Also a woman has the right to refuse to sign the Nikkah, no matter how much her family wants her too. That does happen quite often.
Woodrow LI: Thank you for the explanation. A 'Nikkah' sounds rather like a "prenup" (a prenuptial agreement), although it covers more topics. Not a bad idea, really.
Woodrow LI: Thank you for the explanation. A 'Nikkah' sounds rather like a "prenup" (a prenuptial agreement), although it covers more topics. Not a bad idea, really.
It is very much like a prenup. In Islam marriage is not a religious ceremony, it is a legal contract. Like all contracts one needs to be cautious that they understand everything in it and agree with it fully. I made an error In mine. My wife had put in I would buy her a ring of her choice. GADS I didn't know a ring that price existed.
These days thanks to the internet, one can find examples of Nikkahs and use them as guides in writing it. It took my wife an myself 6 days to come to an agreement we both accepted.
Many woman put intheir Nikkah the husband buy her a certain amount of gold Jewelry. That is sort of an insurance policy. A man is forbidden to own gold jewelry You will find many Muslim woman have thousands of dollars in it. It serves as a backup in the event the woman is left as a penniless widow.
One reason for the popularity of the Gold Souk in Dubai.
You may notice the jewelry is all very plain with no gemstones, just pure Gold to serve as a savings account. Very seldom will a woman ever wear it. It is generally tucked away in a bank vault. Typically a Muslim woman will have nothing to do with gold that is less then 22K although 24K is the preferred, which is very unsuitable for jewelry that will be worn.
If you need to live by muslim law then go live in a muslim nation! If you CHOOSE to live in the UK then follow english common law. Or leave...
Thanks for the fine advice. I am quite happy living in the Nation I was born in.
With a few exceptions the people I live among are tolerant of my beliefs. My wife's family has been here long before the white man came to America and members of her family were Muslim before the First Christian stepped foot in North Dakota. although her Great Grand father was at one time a scout for the US cavalry he returned to the tribe and was at the Little Bighorn in 1876 qnd was a strong supporter of Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake Not all Muslims are immigrants. Here in the USA a large number of us have family roots that trace back many generations, such as my wife. I'm a Wasichu (non-Native American Indian) of Lithuanian Tatar Ancestry (Lietuva Lipkas) born in Hartford Connecticut USA
If you are happy with it, then follow the common law, if the laws don't suit you, then move to a nation where the laws are more along the lines of your ideas. One nation, ONE set of laws
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