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Language does little to stand on. I ask for the insightful truth to connect the two if possible. So far I have been given no evidence in this forum as of yet.
The CD forum is for discussion and not to give you evidence of anything. If you need some of sort of evidence there are 1000s upon 1000s of books in a place called a "Library" for you to read. Many of us here have gone to this place called a "Library". Thus many of us know to our own acceptances what is fact and what is truth. And from there we have faith.
The God of Moses and of Jesus. Glad you brought these two into the picture.
Moses a Prophet of God lead the people out of Egypt and to Mount Sinai This story should be well known and hope all Muslims know it being they worship the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus.
God gave Moses the Law ten commands written by the finger of God.
Then Moses later was given the temple design and the rites to be practiced for atonement of Sin. Which Moses said the ritual is a shadow of things to come.
The priest were to even were a specific attire for the ritual. 12 stones on a brestplate 2 on the shoulders. And so on.
The first 5 books of Moses are the Torah the 5 pillars of Judaism.
How does the Koran differentiate?
How does Islam atone for Sin?
If the Koran claims repent then what good is the Sacrifice and for what reason was it even given by God to Moses. Mohammed is teaching to forget the ritual for what reason.
Mt Sinai was known to Bedouins as Holy ground before Moses ever knew it. Moses, his relation to Judaism and what is written in the Torah is for Jews to follow. Though there are numerous parts of the NT and the Torah (and Tanakh) in the Quran, there are no direct verbatim copies to the Quran. Only a person who can read and understand Hebrew/Aramaic/Arabic can fully understand these books since there is no loss in translation to oneself and no loss to scribes and others who interject their own versions/agendas. For whatever reason you cross the bridge of faith and accept Judaism for its facts and truths, yet you have the gall to deny Muslims their faith and the bridge they cross. If and when Woodrow decides to enter this thread, he can explain Islam to you.
One step at a time. For now we are on Moses. The ritual for atonement of sin.
Thankyou for the post. Tanakh was Fullfilled by Jesus.
You are in the wrong forum to accept the Tanakh as being the same as the OT and trying it in Judaism will simply get your thread deleted as proselytizing.
28 And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.
2 And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty.
3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.
6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.
7 It shall have the two shoulderpieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.
8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.
11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the Lord upon his two shoulders for a memorial.
13 And thou shalt make ouches of gold;
14 And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of wreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches.
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.
21 And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.
22 And thou shalt make upon the breastplate chains at the ends of wreathen work of pure gold.
23 And thou shalt make upon the breastplate two rings of gold, and shalt put the two rings on the two ends of the breastplate.
24 And thou shalt put the two wreathen chains of gold in the two rings which are on the ends of the breastplate.
25 And the other two ends of the two wreathen chains thou shalt fasten in the two ouches, and put them on the shoulderpieces of the ephod before it.
26 And thou shalt make two rings of gold, and thou shalt put them upon the two ends of the breastplate in the border thereof, which is in the side of the ephod inward.
27 And two other rings of gold thou shalt make, and shalt put them on the two sides of the ephod underneath, toward the forepart thereof, over against the other coupling thereof, above the curious girdle of the ephod.
28 And they shall bind the breastplate by the rings thereof unto the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, that it may be above the curious girdle of the ephod, and that the breastplate be not loosed from the ephod.
29 And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the Lord continually.
30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.
31 And thou shalt make the robe of the ephod all of blue.
32 And there shall be an hole in the top of it, in the midst thereof: it shall have a binding of woven work round about the hole of it, as it were the hole of an habergeon, that it be not rent.
33 And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about:
34 A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about.
35 And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the Lord, and when he cometh out, that he die not.
36 And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, Holiness To The Lord.
37 And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.
38 And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord.
39 And thou shalt embroider the coat of fine linen, and thou shalt make the mitre of fine linen, and thou shalt make the girdle of needlework.
40 And for Aaron's sons thou shalt make coats, and thou shalt make for them girdles, and bonnets shalt thou make for them, for glory and for beauty.
41 And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.
42 And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:
43 And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.
You're in the wrong forum for this. And FYI many of the words here are transliterated (Hebrew/Aramiac words written with English letters) and not translated.
One step at a time. For now we are on Moses. The ritual for atonement of sin.
Thankyou for the post. Tanakh was Fullfilled by Jesus.
My point is simple, stop this whole exercise. It is pointless, it is offensive and it is proselytizing.
If you wish to understand why Muslims believe that Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, and Muhammed were all prophets, and understand how they reconcile the differences in the Tanakh, the New Testament, and the Quran, you should ask. This is the place to get answers.
If you wish to try to critique Islamic belief, based on its internal inconsistencies and foibles, this is the place to discuss Islamic theology.
If you wish to try to dismantle Islam by creating a strawman of its beliefs, and analyzing it through the lens of Christianity, with no understanding of what its practitioners actually believe, you should probably take it to the Christianity thread.
And on top of that, I was hoping you had the self awareness to see the hypocrisy in a Christian accusing a Muslim of appropriating "their" god, the god of Abraham. ( Just in case I have to spell this out, the god that you appropriated from the Jews!)
Each faith when viewing the issue through its own lens comes to different conclusions. For a Jew, this is easy, Hashem has no son, and is not some sort of polytheistic trinity ("Hear o Israel, the Lord your god is one god"). Thus from a Jewish perspective Hashem, and the God of the New Testament are not the same.
For a Christian, they maintain that the Jews are entirely wrong about their own faith and that their new scripture supplants the old understanding of God. They then argue that Muslims are incorrect because their holy book describes god is a different way than the New Testament, and therefor cannot be the same God.
For Muslims, they maintain that Both the Jews and Christians are wrong about their own faiths, that the Quran is the full and final revelation, and that later "prophets" like the fellow that founded the Bah'ai faith is wrong and worships a different God...
See how this goes? There is a pattern here, and it is utterly laughable that you are trying to criticise Islam for doing what your own faith does.
-NoCapo
P.S. And to be fair, lest my Jewish forum pals think I have let them off the hook, there appears to be a fair amount of textual evidence in the Tanakh that their own faith was build off of the Cananite Pantheon headed by El and Asherah, so it appears that they too are guilty of appropriating someone's god...
136 Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us
and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham),
Isma'il (Ishmael),
Ishaq (Isaac),
Ya'qub (Jacob),
and to Al-Asbat [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)],
and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and 'ÃŽsa (Jesus),
and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord.
We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)." The Holy Quran.
You're in the wrong forum for this. And FYI many of the words here are transliterated (Hebrew/Aramiac words written with English letters) and not translated.
How am I in the wrong forum? We have already established Mohammed wrote that Allah is the same God as Moses. So now I show you what God taught Moses. The priest attire is a long chapter. If you do not like to read well I can't help you.
136 Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us
and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham),
Isma'il (Ishmael),
Ishaq (Isaac),
Ya'qub (Jacob),
and to Al-Asbat [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)],
and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and 'ÃŽsa (Jesus),
and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord.
We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)." The Holy Quran.
Thank you Truth teller for posting the scripture.
Here we have the Lineage from Abraham down. With Abraham we are given a covenant that a boy child must be circumcised on the 8th day. Both Ishmael and Isaac were.
Are Muslims taught these scriptures because if not they are missing out on crucial event in history concerning man and God. The 8th day is directly connected to Jesus.
Now whether a Muslim wishes to believe Jesus is a prophet is their right to believe. But here are the words out of Jesus mouth.
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Now based on the Priest attire 12 stones
For the sake of simplicity what God sent down in chronological order is.
Abraham 8th day circumcision
Ishmael Eldest.
Isaac inheritor.
Esau Eldest of Isaac.
Jacob inheritor.
12 sons of Jacob become 12 tribes.
Moses given the law and knowledge of sin.
Priest attire 12 stones 12 tribes to be atoned. By sacrificial rites given from God.
Jesus 12 disciples.
Now how does Islam atone for sin?
If we are to say repent. Well that has already been said before Muhammad.
Now concerning the Law Ten commandments.
Does Islam keep what the Lord our God sent down to Moses?
Including the Sabbath.?
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