Gov. Scott turns down the high speed rail $$ (costs, law)

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by mawipafl

I reiterate ....

Actually the document you linked gave me an additional (local) reason to dislike the proposal. If you look at the proposed system - JAX gets very shortchanged. It will not have high speed service out of JAX on the JAX to MIA route (high speed seems to start around Daytona Beach) - or out of JAX on the route west (high speed seems to start in Mobile Alabama). Which means it is almost certain we'd have to change trains to get from JAX to MIA or JAX to - for example New Orleans. Robyn

[Robyn55]

And for those of you who missed Thomas Sowell's op ed piece about high speed rail in today's print edition of the FTU - here's a link:

Thomas Sowell

[fsquid]

i gotta agree on the population density argument with Robyn. Maybe improving Amtrak would be a better way to go?

[fsu813]

Thankfully, the experts on the issue may be able to overcome Rick Scott's short-sightedness:


A Friday deadline looms for Florida to accept $2.4 billion in federal funds for the Orlando-Tampa high-speed rail project, but regardless of its outcome, efforts are under way that could lead to Jacksonville becoming a player in the system.

A study originated by the Georgia Department of Transportation began last month to explore the possibility of high-speed rail from Atlanta to Jacksonville, said James Boyle, Jacksonville Transportation Authority senior planner.

Boyle said Jacksonville is considered the Florida gateway in the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor.

Boyle serves as the Jacksonville liaison for the study and told members of the Northeast Florida Regional Transportation Study Commission about the high-speed rail status.

Boyle said the study would likely take around a year to complete.

“While the rest of Florida has stopped, we are still actively planning,” said Boyle.


Full article here: Jacksonville high-speed rail on track? - The Daily Record - Jacksonville, Florida

James is a neighbor of mine, btw...

[UB50]

Originally Posted by Robyn55

And for those of you who missed Thomas Sowell's op ed piece about high speed rail in today's print edition of the FTU - here's a link:

Thomas Sowell

It would be great if this article was factually true, but it isn't. Osaka is smaller in population than Los Angeles alone. Facts | City of Osaka

Osaka proper has less than 3 million people. Los Angeles (city of, not including anything else) has over 3 million.

The other problem that Sowell doesn't touch on is the fact that the freeways between SoCal and NoCal need to be expanded and that would be extremely expensive. It's not only for car traffic -- it's partly due to the busy LA/Long Beach ports and all the truck traffic.

Where is his opinion piece on the high cost of roads and freeways and the government subsidies that go into them? I haven't been able to find it....

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by UB50

It would be great if this article was factually true, but it isn't. Osaka is smaller in population than Los Angeles alone. Facts | City of Osaka

Osaka proper has less than 3 million people. Los Angeles (city of, not including anything else) has over 3 million.

The other problem that Sowell doesn't touch on is the fact that the freeways between SoCal and NoCal need to be expanded and that would be extremely expensive. It's not only for car traffic -- it's partly due to the busy LA/Long Beach ports and all the truck traffic.

Where is his opinion piece on the high cost of roads and freeways and the government subsidies that go into them? I haven't been able to find it....

Here's a list of the largest metro areas in the world (a little out of date - but probably still pretty valid):

Largest Cities in the World - List of the Largest Cities

The Osaka metro area is bigger in terms of population than the LA metro area - and the Tokyo metro area is the largest in the world. And - more importantly - both are a ton denser than just about anything we have in the US. For example - I am in the City of Miami now - which I believe has a smaller population than the City of JAX - but we all know the City of Miami is a lot more dense than the City of JAX (although it really isn't that dense compared to lots of big cities). Population is important - but density is perhaps more important.

And the traffic in Miami is much as I remember it (we come here at least once a year and lived here for 20+ years). OK if you don't drive to travel long distances by car. We're staying on Brickell Avenue - going to Coconut Grove - the Design District - Coral Gables - staying off I-95 - and the traffic isn't bad at all - kind of slow but steady (then again - a lot of the roads we're driving on have 35 mph speed limits). FWIW - driving into Miami yesterday - the traffic wasn't even as bad as the traffic on JTB at rush hour (although we were counter-flow) - traffic leaving was pretty bad. And the only somewhat bad traffic we've had is on Brickell to downtown and vice versa - largely the result of construction turning a 2 lane road into 1. So it just kind of reinforces my basic assessment. You don't get into trouble in slurbed out places unless you try to commute 40 miles round trip a day and don't live close to the things you do every day.

Anyway - I'll ask the same question I asked a way up thread. Who would use any of the planned rail routes out of JAX that are in that federal report? Only high speed route I might use is JAX to Atlanta - perhaps once or twice a year. Might use a high speed route from JAX to New Orleans or Texas - but a 100% high speed train for those routes isn't even on the drawing board. JAx to points in the NE - forget about it. Planes are faster and cheaper. And to MIA - forget about that too. High speed 100% isn't on the drawing board - and it took us less than 6 hours to drive to MIA yesterday (including lunch). Without a 100% high speed rail connection to MIA - train will take about the same time as driving - be more expensive - and we'll have to rent a car when we get to MIA no matter what our plans are. Robyn

[donisanasfan]

I thought this article from reason.org made what seems to me to be a very, uh , reasonable ( and obvious) conculsion.Reason Foundation - President Obama, China, High-Speed Rail and the Sputnik Moment

[UB50]

Originally Posted by Robyn55

Here's a list of the largest metro areas in the world (a little out of date - but probably still pretty valid):

Largest Cities in the World - List of the Largest Cities

The Osaka metro area is bigger in terms of population than the LA metro area - and the Tokyo metro area is the largest in the world. And - more importantly - both are a ton denser than just about anything we have in the US. For example - I am in the City of Miami now - which I believe has a smaller population than the City of JAX - but we all know the City of Miami is a lot more dense than the City of JAX (although it really isn't that dense compared to lots of big cities). Population is important - but density is perhaps more important.

And the traffic in Miami is much as I remember it (we come here at least once a year and lived here for 20+ years). OK if you don't drive to travel long distances by car. We're staying on Brickell Avenue - going to Coconut Grove - the Design District - Coral Gables - staying off I-95 - and the traffic isn't bad at all - kind of slow but steady (then again - a lot of the roads we're driving on have 35 mph speed limits). FWIW - driving into Miami yesterday - the traffic wasn't even as bad as the traffic on JTB at rush hour (although we were counter-flow) - traffic leaving was pretty bad. And the only somewhat bad traffic we've had is on Brickell to downtown and vice versa - largely the result of construction turning a 2 lane road into 1. So it just kind of reinforces my basic assessment. You don't get into trouble in slurbed out places unless you try to commute 40 miles round trip a day and don't live close to the things you do every day.

Anyway - I'll ask the same question I asked a way up thread. Who would use any of the planned rail routes out of JAX that are in that federal report? Only high speed route I might use is JAX to Atlanta - perhaps once or twice a year. Might use a high speed route from JAX to New Orleans or Texas - but a 100% high speed train for those routes isn't even on the drawing board. JAx to points in the NE - forget about it. Planes are faster and cheaper. And to MIA - forget about that too. High speed 100% isn't on the drawing board - and it took us less than 6 hours to drive to MIA yesterday (including lunch). Without a 100% high speed rail connection to MIA - train will take about the same time as driving - be more expensive - and we'll have to rent a car when we get to MIA no matter what our plans are. Robyn

Ha! On the other list of big cities that the page you linked to links to (Largest Urban Areas in the World), LA is bigger than Osaka. I guess there is no way to be sure.

With regards to your question, I don't believe gas is going to be $5 a gallon 20 years from now. I believe it will be much, much higher than that. In fact, I remember 30 years ago, gas was 19 cents a gallon in Brevard County. I don't know what it is there now, but I saw gas over $4 a gallon here in LA today. The higher gas prices go, the more people consider alternative forms of transportation.

But you can't wait until gas gets to $20 a gallon to say "Gosh! We need a train system!" These things take a long time to build! To really get a functioning system going (local transportation + HSR and other trains), it will take the state a good 20 to 30 years to build.

[donisanasfan]

You are right when you say that the higher gas prices go, the more people consider alternative means of transportation. That is why the Obama administration is creating this crisis through the restriction of drilling in this country . ( even a disrict court judge in New Orleans ruled that they have acted in contempt ,with a determined disregard to restrict offshore drilling) It will backfire, people will demand that we take advantage of every resource we possess within our means. Do you really think people will respond by demanding high speed rail? I don't think so.

[Robyn55]

The differences between populations of urban areas and cities is the result of where city lines are drawn. For example - the City of Beverly Hills isn't part of the City of Los Angeles - but is part of the Los Angeles metro area. Ditto with the City of Miami Beach - it isn't part of the City of Miami - but is part of the Miami/Dade metro area. And so it goes throughout the US - and the world. Density doesn't always stop at city boundaries. And sometimes it stops way before (as in the case of the City of JAX). Robyn