Florida Coastal School of Law...should I go? (Tampa, Daytona Beach: beach, title)

[904jax]

Contrary to what many have said, the practice of law has actually become easier in recent years. When I first started out, running a successful law practice was an expensive proposition. You needed secretaries to transcribe dictation, mail pleadings and correspondence, make copies and keep track of calendars. You also needed file clerks to organize huge file rooms, maintain law libraries and run pleadings to the court clerk. With advances in software, scanning technology, electronic filing, and cheap, powerful computers, all of the aforementioned functions have been largely automated and can be performed on a small laptop computer. The cost of all of people and space have been greatly reduced.

It’s also much easier to learn specific practice areas and increase your skill level. There are thousands of excellent CLE classes a mouse click away. When I started out you needed to attend live CLE presentations or order expensive, clunky tapes.

All of this technology has allowed the reduction of staff while increasing the importance and value of critical thinking, work ethic and technical competency. What the law needs now, more than ever, are bright people to leverage all this technology to bring quality, cost effective services to clients. All things being equal, most firms will select a UF or FSU grad with a 160 LSAT over a Coastal grad who squeaked into law school with a 145 to 150 LSAT. There are plenty of FSU, UF and UM students graduating each year.

Unfortunately, the 4th tier continues to grow in a world of decreased staffing requirements. $150,000 plus debt is too large a burden for a 4th tier graduate who will need to boot strap their way into the legal profession. This may include working jobs that pay 20,000, to 40,000 to gain the experience necessary to practice at the next level. If a new grad chooses to start out as a solo, they’ll need at least a year of expenses saved and plenty of moxie, no easy task with $150,000 in debt and limited job prospects.

Finally, I know many excellent 4th tier grad attorneys, but many of them were able to gain employment and experience in era that required more people. That all changed around the time the economy tanked (2007/2008) and Coastal nearly doubled the size of its entering class. Even as the economy improves, and it will, Coastal grads will likely face a difficult job market as other 4th tier schools like Ava Maria and Cooley (both recently opened Florida campuses) start cranking out more 4th tier grads to compete with Coastal’s enormous graduating classes.

[fsquid]

yea, spammer

[falcon910]

Below is a cut & paste from an actual job ad that one of my attorney friends sent to me. He tells me it is one of dozens he sees everyday. It is a law firm in Miami seeking an attorney. They would prefer you to be bilingual. The generous compensation offer is 38k a year. Keep in mind, this is for the Miami area.

So, let’s do the math. 3 years of advanced school + 150k tuition = 38k a year while living in Miami.
Are these people smoking crack?

My attorney friend tells me that so many of his cohorts are so desperate at this point that no doubt the applications are rolling in.
================================================== =========================
　
We are a Law Firm in Miami - Coral Way hiring:

**Attorney**

- MUST be licensed by the Florida bar
- MUST be able to accept supervision at all times
- MUST have good research skills
- MUST be able to take initiative
- MUST be organized
- MUST be responsible
- MUST be able to complete all tasks on a timely manner
- MUST be willing to put effort into learning
- MUST be able to work well with others
- Some Knowledge with immigration, family, criminal law is a plus
- One year to two year plus experience is a plus
- Bilingual (english/spanish) is a plus
- Notary is a plus

We are offering $38,000 a year to start.

[ElectroPlumber]

Originally Posted by falcon910

Below is a cut & paste from an actual job ad that one of my attorney friends sent to me. He tells me it is one of dozens he sees everyday. It is a law firm in Miami seeking an attorney. They would prefer you to be bilingual. The generous compensation offer is 38k a year. Keep in mind, this is for the Miami area.

So, let’s do the math. 3 years of advanced school + 150k tuition = 38k a year while living in Miami.
Are these people smoking crack?

My attorney friend tells me that so many of his cohorts are so desperate at this point that no doubt the applications are rolling in.
================================================== =========================
　
We are a Law Firm in Miami - Coral Way hiring:

**Attorney**

- MUST be licensed by the Florida bar
- MUST be able to accept supervision at all times
- MUST have good research skills
- MUST be able to take initiative
- MUST be organized
- MUST be responsible
- MUST be able to complete all tasks on a timely manner
- MUST be willing to put effort into learning
- MUST be able to work well with others
- Some Knowledge with immigration, family, criminal law is a plus
- One year to two year plus experience is a plus
- Bilingual (english/spanish) is a plus
- Notary is a plus

We are offering $38,000 a year to start.

Honestly, it depends on the work ethic culture of the firm. If they want 60 hours for $38,000, it's a terrible deal.

On the other hand, if they don't expect more than 40 hours a week and are easy going, I would take it as a new attorney if I also wanted to be in Miami.

The first firm I worked for out of law school was located in Galveston (beach town) and I probably only worked more than 40 hours a week no more than 3 or 4 times in five years. They were also extremely fun to work with. I wasn't paid a whole lot even back then (actually was embarrassingly underpaid), but I learned a lot about how to practice law and I went on my own after that. So it depends on what they expect and what you can live with. I wanted to work for exactly that type of firm and was willing to accept less to do it.

The ad I answered for that first job looked a lot like the one they posted, except for the bilingual need.

[904jax]

Originally Posted by falcon910

So, let’s do the math. 3 years of advanced school + 150k tuition = 38k a year while living in Miami.

Going all the way back to the days of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams (both lawyers), the law has not been a high paying profession for new lawyers. The Big Law, big salary for new JDs from top schools is a relatively recent phenomenon, and has always represented a narrow band of the profession's total spectrum.

The law is a learned profession, which requires years of post-JD practice to master. $38,000 is a bargain, not for the salary, but for the opportunity to learn the profession, not unlike a medical school resident. Unfortunately, $150,000 plus in non-dischargeable debt makes spending 3-5 years learning at $38,000 very difficult.

The law is not a profession to earn an easy, comfortable living, it never has been. For this reason, there has always been a relative high rate of attrition in the legal profession.

PS

If you want to analyze what lawyers are making, the Florida Bar recently published a statewide salary survey.

[falcon910]

“The law is a learned profession”

--Agreed.

“$38,000 is a bargain, not for the salary, but for the opportunity to learn the profession, not unlike a medical school resident.”

Opportunity? Like pawning your new TV at the pawn shop? Like getting an advance on your paycheck at one of those nefarious payday loan offices? Or opportunity like carrying a credit card with a 25% interest rate? Yea, I will pass on that opportunity.

And as far as medical doctors (I have those friends as well), it is true they earn very little through residency as they are still in training. Afterwards, their salary leaps to over 100k a year. Maybe 200k if you are a surgeon.

The point is that many of these law grads are graduating and aren’t given any opportunity to practice law due to the glut of attorneys in the market.
These recent law grads didn’t take on over 150k in student loan debt only to graduate to have the “opportunity” to earn 38k a year.

What happened to earning a living wage? Is being an attorney a professional career or not?

The average monthly student loan payment my attorney friends have is around $1000. So let’s run the numbers. A grad wins the lottery and gets the “opportunity” to practice law at 38k a year. Let’s say he takes the before mentioned job in the Miami area.
Subtract his yearly student loan payment of $12,000 for the year and that voluminous 38k a year in earnings is now down to $26,000 a year. And that is the starting point. Throw in a car payment, rent, wife and kids….do I need to continue? Seriously?

38k in this economy after borrowing 100k in loans is not a professional living wage!

I also have a dentist friend….do you think once he graduated that his first job paid 38k a year for the opportunity to clean teeth? No, his first job paid more than double that. I only have a B.A. and have a job in the IT field. My first job straight out of college paid more than double that.

Bottom line, these law schools painted a “false picture” for these grads to get them to enroll. That is the point……

This would be a good time for you recent law grads on this blog to chime in…..I seem to always be the guy carrying the water for you guys.

[Robyn55]

Don't Go to Law School -- find out why - YouTube

Overall - I find it depressing.

Robyn

[madcapmagishion]

Originally Posted by Robyn55

Don't Go to Law School -- find out why - YouTube

Overall - I find it depressing.

Robyn

So sad but so true and funny!

[falcon910]

“This would be a good time for you recent law grads on this blog to chime in…..I seem to always be the guy carrying the water for you guys.”

I ended my last post with the above listed quote over 3 weeks ago while arguing on behalf of this recent generation of lawyers that they have been dealt a bad hand and that a salary of 38k a year after going through the arduous task of law school and the bar exam is ludicrous and insulting. Not to even mention the debt.

Now we all know there is a “hand full” of relatively recent law grads on here who read this blog. Some have even posted.

The response? Crickets….nothing…nada…..

And these are the “trained” future advocates being cranked out by the law schools. They can’t even seem to advocate for themselves, much less their clients. This is why they are in such a mess and why despite the scam, very little has changed. The only exception is the few who have decided to take on the law school machine through litigation.

I guess all these law grads who are now financially ruined are to occupied worrying about their “reputations” to take action….Yea, how is that working out for you?

Well, I am done advocating for them. I have given my lawyer friends this same speech. I also retract my previous statements. Based on my observations, a salary of 38k for these grads may be too high. Perhaps 25k is more appropriate.

Meanwhile, due to the lack of action by these grads, the law school scam machine is still humming along smoothly…New students are lining up to attend with absolutely no idea of the financial disaster that awaits them…

[madcapmagishion]

Originally Posted by falcon910

Based on my observations, a salary of 38k for these grads may be too high. Perhaps 25k is more appropriate.…

I'm thinking more like $8.00 an hour, or whatever they can make asking people if they would like fries with their order.