Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The Moshiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5).
He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15).
Jesus of Nazareth did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the Moshiach would do.
You are right, but we are talking about Jesus Christ who will return soon and complete the work assigned to him by God. The scribes of Israel knew that he was going to come as a suffering servant first. The Jewish nation is still tripping over the fact that he didn't kick Romes butt. But of course that time is coming!
And so, when he comes to judge, just make sure you get on his good side. If you recall any of the Talmud, it says in Psalms; "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." (2:12)
Jesus IS the Son. Do reverence to him, believe on him and you will be saved from the destruction prepared for you!
Do you not know that the ceremony for the redeeming of the first born in Israel is called "Yeshua ha ben"! In english that is "Jesus the Son"? So, Jesus was the means by which the First born were redeemed in Isreal.
Did you not know that John bore witness that blood and water flowed from Jesus' side at the cruxifiction! Why is this important to the Christian? It is not, it is important to the Jew. This was represented in the oblation in the temple when the water and the wine were poured out together on the side of the altar. It was so important that the water and wine pour our in equal measure that two funels of different sizes were used so that the water and wine flowed and the same rate. Amazing? Yes. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. His life is the culmination of what we have waited for since the beginning!
Is not God good? He did what he said he was going to do!
It is written: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9: 6-7)
How can God be born unto us as a child and still be God? However God did it, he did it. This is a marvelous thing that has been done. God has done a great work. He has sent his Son, whom the prophets spoke of old. He has not only redeemed his people Israel, but the whole world.
The scribes and the pharasees of Jesus' time were not angry with him for blaspheming, though they did say this, but rather they envied him. Why? Because they knew he was of the lineage of David, the rightful heir to the throne and the Son of God.
It is written: But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews? For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy. (Mark 15:9-10)
If Jesus was not heir to the throne, then how did he talk with them and they not throw him out? For Jesus was of a higher cast in Jerusalem then the Scribes and Pharasees and they could not!
Hmmm. I can understand why you might write this. But the commonly-accepted "Jesus" of the churches would not recognize Himself in their description. The "Jesus" of the Scriptures clearly stated that He did not come to the Gentiles but to Jews. They were His interest -- His own country-people. Gentiles were included by being "grafted in" to Israel. But His whole point was those of Israel; He left going to the gentiles to others after His death and (yes, I believe it!) His resurrection.
Sure, He mentioned these people and spent a LITTLE time in Gentile areas, but they were not His focus! Guess we disagree on this count. But we can handle that.
Wow! We ARE reading a different Bible! He never, in my Bible, taught against Sabbath observance. I suggest that you (please forgive me! ) reread His reasonong and compare that reasoning with the Torah and with Oral Torah. He was against certain parts of the Oral Torah but NOT, at ALL, against the Torah! The Torah is the Mosaic Law, but the Oral Torah includes the fences, thoughts, ideas of others and is not Mosaic Law.
The Scripture about "all food being clean" is SO misunderstood by the modern church. One has to consider, when reading that Scripture, what "food" was. Food did not include such things as snake, pig, wolf, crab, lobster, beasts that were not handled properly, beasts killed in the field, etc. These are not food, even though some eat them.
Thank you for continuing this, Arequipa.
I would love to respond to all this, but I'm afraid of getting off the topic of Paul. Be glad to start another thread or PM. I'll just say that the Gospels come across to me as based on a Jesus who was just concerned with the Jews. In fact Matthew says as much at 10.5 'Go nowhere among the gentiles' but, being in the early gentile christian church the gospel -writers added as much as they could to make it seem that Jesus was partial to gentiles - the examples I gave, plus traveling to the Decapolis and Phoenecia, which John doesn't mention AT ALL and actually, neither does Luke! Strong evidence that the gospel original that Matthew and Mark used had been amended to include these gentile travels, including the Syriophonecian woman. What Luke does is show people coming to hear Jesus from all over the map. That seems impossible as someone as important as that could not have been totally overlooked by historians of the time (and he is) so I'm inclined to see his mission as pretty secretive.
Please see the healings and rubbing husks of grain on the sabbath plus declaring all foods clean. This is absolutely breaking the Jewish observances - I have heard it called the mosaic Law by Jews - maybe Mr. Greenspan can advise - and that is what these quarrels are about.
The matter of food is clear. Some food is ok to eat under Jewish ritual law and some isn't. Jesus (mark 7.19) 'declared all foods clean'.
I don't know what you mean by the term "proto-Christian", but Jesus was not a "failed Jewish messiah" ...read on...
It is interesting that a certain portion of Isaiah is glossed over, and Christ as the Suffering Servant is not recognized: 13.Isaiah 52:13 See, my servant will act wisely ; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14.Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.Isaiah
15.Isaiah 53:11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
Jews of that day were looking for a conqueror, as you say, a military leader.
They did not understand that Messiah would first come as the suffering servant. Jesus is descended from King David, the line traced through Mary, his earthly mother.
Today, religous Jews are still looking forward to the coming of Messiah, just as Christians are. I once heard a Rabbi say that when Messiah comes, he wouldn't be surprised at all if he turned out to be Christ. When he does come, he will come as the King of kings, the righteous judge and ruler.
As I said to Velcro-girl (Batman's latest opponent ) I don't want to get off - topic.
Jews do not accept that messiah has come - yet. And they should know.
In Jewish trms the mission failed because any messianic success for Judaism at the time had to include - first and foremost - getting rid of gentile rulers of Judea.
The Sufferring servant passages are hardly glossed over. In fact they are the principal 'prophetic proofs' that jesus was the messiah. They do not convince me in the least. Not when you read the whole thing in context.
To get back on topic, a bit. I long wondered how a failed messiah, crucified for sedition (clearly what the crime was, as the gospels show) became transformed into the christian messiah-as-god idea. The apostles had to be the link. I am postulating (and I think there is are indications, but I know I am close to cherry - picking what seems to suit my theory) that the disciples, originally in despair got the idea (Simon Peter, was probably the first) that Jesus ...sorry gota help walk the demented hounds...more later had gone to sit with God and would come again and the somehow his death was no so much failure but a sacrifice connected with the New covenant.
Again that all sounds like connecting a few dots, but the dits are significant ones. Paul, after conversion. believed that he was getting his ideas from Jesus. I think it was all in his head as he has to argue it all out and the mangling of Scripture to suit his argument would not have pleased Jesus at all. I think that his mission was based on the Apostles idea that Jesus would come back in that generation and the last days had already begun. The 'proof' was the raising of the dead and the opening of tombs.
27.53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city1 and appeared to many people.
In fact I was thinking about your symbolic tearing of the temple veil as a sign that the barrier between god and men was gone. I argued that it was intended to be taken as an actual event. This event is certainly not true as non-one reports it, not even Mark, Luke or John. Could it have been a symbolic thing? But "appeared to many people" shows that it is intended to be a real event. Not just a symbol but physical events as the Last days began to take effect.
In Paul's time 20 - 30 years later, it was still likely and Paul wanted his fellow citizens to be part of it. I mean Graeco- romans, even non - citizens. When Luke wrote his gospel, it was clear that the prediction of the coming of the kingdom hadn't panned out and he was toying with the idea that it was already here, but no -one had noticed.
luke 17.21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is withina you."
P.s proto - Christian. I mean that he was depicted in the gospels as putting forward a lot of ideas that were more Christian than Jewish. That is, it is suggesting that Jesus began ideas such as a planned death - sacrifice, himself as God incarnate - even in John 6.53, a proto - eucharist idea. And of course, the jew - hatred that was to disfigure Christianity for 2,000 years.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-14-2010 at 04:09 AM..
Well, O Velcroesque One, since I have it prepared, I may as well post it.
Quote:
:Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Thus, I say that Paul first produced the idea of a risen messiah redeeming Gentiles as well as Jews and the gospel - writers went further and made Jesus a pro - gentile Messiah = God figure and gets pretty
anti - Jewish on the way, in a way that Paul would not have liked and which would have disgusted Jesus.
Velquroe
Quote:
Well, the way I read the book, the idea that Gentiles would also be saved begins in the Torah, Jews being a light to the world, being the guardians of the Scriptures. I find no anti-Semitism in Him at all but only a very pro-Israel person, reared by practicing Jews, taken to the Temple, continuing in the Temple, who declared firmly that none of the Torah would be done away even until the . . . well, here's the passage:
Quote:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the
kingdom of heaven.
Well, Arequipa, I guess we see things differently. That shouldn't surprise us, I am sure.
Good heavens, madam, don't you find any anti - Jewishness here?
John 8. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.
That's the most extreme but John is shot through with slamming of 'The Jews' and the other gospels are not much better.
Luke 11.37 When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38 But the Pharisee, noticing that Jesus did not first wash before the meal, was surprised. 39 Then the LORD said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But give what is inside [the dish] to the poor, and everything will be clean for you..."
Not content with the junking of ALL cleanliness rules, Jesus thanks his host for dinner thus..
42 "Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. 43 "Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces...47 "Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,
Thus Luke sets the scene for the blaming of the Jews for ..everything. And the single terrible lie that was the origin of every pogrom and worse.
Matth 27. 25 All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"
You will notice that it is only Matthew reports these sayings. "Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil." etc.
However, the plain fact is that, nevertheless, Jesus DOES argue the breaking of the Sabbath and clean food laws. The argument is explained in Paul who says that the law cannot save, only faith in Jesus can save.
He therefore suggests that the law is still imposed on Jews but need not apply to gentiles.
The gospels go further. It suggests that Jews ARE at fault in practising these irrelevant rules and argues against them with the argment from: 'ok to do good on the sabbath', David ate the shawbread (one of the worst arguments I have heard in the Gospels) and altering 'clean' from ritually
clean to morally clean just as Paul pointing the way with moral 'circumcision' making ritual circumcision obsolete.
This is the rationale behind 'Fulfilled'. In fact, it means that now Jesus has given the new teaching the old law is obsolete.
Luke16.16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
Thus 'fulfilled' is a rhetorical trick to make it seem that the Law has not passed away even though it is not needed anymore. But the fact is that Jesus is shown as saying that the Jewish ritual law is not to be followed. There is no way out of it; the whole law - every jot and tittle, is being
rubbished.
I long wondered how a failed messiah, crucified for sedition (clearly what the crime was, as the gospels show) became transformed into the christian messiah-as-god idea. The apostles had to be the link.
I think that sounds reasonable, if not likely. Throw in the devastating effects of the war with Rome (a significant percentage of the Jewish population eliminated, and many survivors scattered throughout the Mediterranean region) and there was a situation unanticipated by Jesus during his lifetime: his specific instruction to his disciples--that they not preach to Gentiles--was almost impossible to follow. So they didn't. This all resulted in a new religion, where the actual historical figure known as Jesus of Nazareth intended no such thing.
I agree and I say that it isn't just a reasonable supposition, but there are clues in Paul and even in Acts, doubtfully accurate as it is, that this is what happened. Probably even without the Jewish war, Paul's gentile - friendly version of the Apostle's creed would have spread - there was certainly an appeal to counteract the downside of the crucifixion, but the Jewish war certainly left the field open.
...there was certainly an appeal to counteract the downside of the crucifixion...
Downside? Yes, it was a "downer" for the followers and disciples, but only until the resurrection! That was what rejuvenated them, they remembered what He had said, the Gospel took off, and here we are today after many rather tragic bumps and corrections in the road, but still going strong.
...In fact I was thinking about your symbolic tearing of the temple veil as a sign that the barrier between god and men was gone. I argued that it was intended to be taken as an actual event. This event is certainly not true as non-one reports it, not even Mark, Luke or John. Could it have been a symbolic thing? But "appeared to many people" shows that it is intended to be a real event. Not just a symbol but physical events as the Last days began to take effect.
P.s proto - Christian. I mean that he was depicted in the gospels as putting forward a lot of ideas that were more Christian than Jewish. That is, it is suggesting that Jesus began ideas such as a planned death - sacrifice, himself as God incarnate - even in John 6.53, a proto - eucharist idea. And of course, the jew - hatred that was to disfigure Christianity for 2,000 years.
I see no "Jew hatred" in the Gospels. Jesus spoke in spiritual terms. He hated no one. Truth can be hard to hear, but those that were willing to hear spiritual truths, heard and heeded.
Jesus began ideas such as a planned death? He invented the idea of himself as God incarnate?
Not my Jesus...He is the Son of God, Emmanuel "God with us", Savior, the great "I am", God in the flesh.
Christians became known by that name because they were forced out of the Synagogues, and people referred to them as "those Christ ones".
Arequipa --
I came home from services to find we'd had an electrical outage. I turned everything on and found your writings on this page! Thank you! I will get back to them later --I hope after evening, but i am not sure. I have something up my sleeve for tonight and something for tomorrow morning.
Thank you for your thoughtful questions!
Right now, I need to go sit on ice and study A.W.Pink!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
time in Gentile areas, but they were not His focus! Guess we disagree on this count. 
He never, in my Bible, taught against Sabbath observance. I suggest that you (please forgive me! 
) reread His reasonong and compare that reasoning with the Torah and with Oral Torah. He was against certain parts of the Oral Torah but NOT, at ALL, against the Torah! The Torah is the Mosaic Law, but the Oral Torah includes the fences, thoughts, ideas of others and is not Mosaic Law.
