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Terrible day in E Germany with another shul attack. B’h, they were prepared with a combo of tefilla (prayer) and hishtadalus (effort - ie, good barriers for the building).
My shul had an armed guard with an AK47. Was impressive looking. Additionally another 15-20 members concealing and carrying. And lots of powerful prayer, our best defense.
Terrible day in E Germany with another shul attack. B’h, they were prepared with a combo of tefilla (prayer) and hishtadalus (effort - ie, good barriers for the building).
My shul had an armed guard with an AK47. Was impressive looking. Additionally another 15-20 members concealing and carrying. And lots of powerful prayer, our best defense.
Did your shuls have any protection in place?
Baruch Dayan Ha Emet for those who lost their lives in this attack.
Wow, where does a shul like yours exist? Most shuls I have gone to are pretty anti-gun and believe in the magical quick police response and hiding behind furniture tactics. I think every synagogue people should be armed and armed guards with semi auto rifles are even greater benefit as long as the community isn't morally opposed to such "scary firearms ".
Considering my relatives weren't allowed to own guns and many had to dig their own graves before being gunned down by the Nazi ancestors of today's shooter, I will say that I would only hope we Jews could have learned our lessons. I have learned my lesson and I never would go to shul unarmed and could care less about what the "moral police" tell me. When seconds count the police are only minutes away. It took the cops over 10 minutes to come to the aid of that shul in Germany and two people lost their lives because of it. Imagine if he found a way in through those locked doors? It would have been like shooting fish in a barrel and a continuation of Third Reich's dirty work in the "Fatherland", as many of those Jews would have lost their lives to that Neo-Nazi cockroach.
To be honest, why do Jews still live in Germany? Did we not learn our lesson? There is rising Anti-Semitism both from Germans and the Islamic community and Jews are becoming more and more polarized in the country. Praying for the police to save them didn't end up so well for Jewish community in the 30s in Germany, despite living quite nicely in Germany prior to Hitler's election.
Europe is becoming more and more uninhabitable for Jewish communities as the Anti-Semitism rises and the laws of self-defense are becoming more and more restrictive for law abiding citizens, yet criminals seem more heavily armed than ever.
Last edited by RotseCherut; 10-10-2019 at 10:37 AM..
Baruch Dayan Ha Emet for those who lost their lives in this attack.
Wow, where does a shul like yours exist? Most shuls I have gone to are pretty anti-gun and believe in the magical quick police response and hiding behind furniture tactics. I think every synagogue people should be armed and armed guards with semi auto rifles are even greater benefit as long as the community isn't morally opposed to such "scary firearms ".
Considering my relatives weren't allowed to own guns and many had to dig their own graves before being gunned down by the Nazi ancestors of today's shooter, I will say that I would only hope we Jews could have learned our lessons. I have learned my lesson and I never would go to shul unarmed and could care less about what the "moral police" tell me. When seconds count the police are only minutes away. It took the cops over 10 minutes to come to the aid of that shul in Germany and two people lost their lives because of it. Imagine if he found a way in through those locked doors? It would have been like shooting fish in a barrel and a continuation of Third Reich's dirty work in the "Fatherland", as many of those Jews would have lost their lives to that Neo-Nazi cockroach.
To be honest, why do Jews still live in Germany? Did we not learn our lesson? There is rising Anti-Semitism both from Germans and the Islamic community and Jews are becoming more and more polarized in the country. Praying for the police to save them didn't end up so well for Jewish community in the 30s in Germany, despite living quite nicely in Germany prior to Hitler's election.
Europe is becoming more and more uninhabitable for Jewish communities as the Anti-Semitism rises and the laws of self-defense are becoming more and more restrictive for law abiding citizens, yet criminals seem more heavily armed than ever.
Good post, and strong agreement from me in almost all of the details.
A shul pretty much like TFF's exists half a mile from me. On RH and YK we had paid private security, all open carry, mostly the owner of the security firm, who was decked out in duty belt and above-average externally-worn soft body armor, with the approval of the Rabbi. The rest of the year, there is generally one competent armed handgunner not particularly identifiable, who pays attention to the main entrance. All entrances are locked. We are working on getting more armed congregants, but, of course, it is not a speedy process, because most of our congregants do not have significant prior experience. However, there is a lot of good attitude.
To details:
TFF reports an AK-47. At first glance, I don't believe that. Are you sure that it wasn't a semi-auto lookalike? 15-20 carrying? Great! I hope that some day we can approach your achievement.
Regarding "I think every synagogue people should be armed and armed guards with semi auto rifles are even greater benefit as long as the community isn't morally opposed to such "scary firearms ,'" I have several thoughts. While I am not at all opposed to effective longarms in the hands of competent users (and it is easier to learn competence with a rifle than with a pistol), I am pretty sure that it is not usually the first weapon one needs when faced with the average anti-Jewish nutcase. Therefore, I am not that crazy about burdening first defense with heavy rifles (and they are all heavy compared to pistols) which may interfere with optimum use of a pistol, should that become necessary. Of course a young man in good shape may well be able to carry a light rifle even while having his pistol optimally available. I believe that the need for a rifle is likely negligible compared to the immediate need for a pistol. However, what I believe is nothing compared to what turns out to be true.
Obviously, my last comment has almost nothing to do with TFF's shul, which apparently can well afford to have devoted riflemen. I envy them.
Competence, which comes partly from proper training, seems to me to be more important than choice of firearms, although one flows from the other. Our local PD was VERY helpful in providing education on the latest thinking about this problem, and the representatives provided were very reality-oriented and firearms friendly. Perhaps your PD will be, as well.
I used the term AK47 as a generic term. It was a big scary looking gun. I go to the range once every 2-3 months (shoot mostly 9mm hand guns), but I know many of the enthusiasts in the shul go weekly/monthly. Big gun culture here. I believe tefilla is our best line of defense, but the well trained users of these concealed weapons are also required. A bad guy shooter wouldn’t last 15 seconds in my shul.
We hired professional, armed security guards at my synagogue for the High Holy Days. I made it a point to thank them for keeping us safe, in the same way that I thank those in our armed forces for their service.
I honestly don't know of any Jewish congregation that would be so foolish as to not have armed security guards on days when we are most likely to be targeted by crazy, violent people. I know that, in our own congregation, we also have at least one member (on our board of directors) who carries his own gun to every service – although he doesn't advertise that fact.
I can tell you that there is not one person in our congregation who is, to my knowledge,"anti-gun" (if "anti-gun" is taken to mean that guns should be denied to those who demonstrate responsible use of them). We have members who own guns (for both personal protection and also recreational use at shooting ranges), and it's no big deal. I don't think we have any members who are into hunting, though. I'm not making any "anti-hunting" statements here – I'm just stating a fact about the people I know in our congregation who happen to own guns.
My heart goes out to those who were killed in the synagogue in Germany. The problem isn't just in Germany, though. Antisemitism is on the rise here in the U.S., and I know of several synagogues that have been vandalized in recent months with nazi slogans and swastikas spray-painted on them.
Rachel, I am from the Pacific NOrthwest and many shuls actually supported all types of anti-gun legislation and were fighting to restrict the rights to keep and bear arms and it angered many in the RKBA community (as myself). I had a Rabbi at a rather liberal Reform shul in Seattle area actually cuss me out when I told him that he is supporting the same legislation Hitler supported in the 1930s to disarm the Jewish people in Germany. Some people don't like to face the fact that the first legislation the Nazis implemented against the Jew was to remove their rights to keep firearms and the Jewish Gun Control legislation (German Weapons Act of 1938, Waffengesetz) has been used and re-written due to its effectiveness of disarming with good persuasion a good of people who the government identified as a threat to National Security. National Security and Safety is generally the main argument used by governments to disarm its populace and assume all authority and power to defend (and sadly oppress) their populations from themselves.
I agree there is a problem with Anti-Semitism all over the world, but the USA is the only country where Jews have the rights to keep and bear arms and has been the only country in over 2000 years where a Jew could legally defend himself against an oppressor of the nation he resided. Jews have been second class citizens for generations after the fall of Israel in the time of the Roman conquest. Masada probably one of the last displays of Jewish power to defend their people against an outside aggressor. In Israel, the government has the power to defend itself, but in general their gun control laws are very strict and Jewish citizens have no right to defend themselves in Israel either, as we have seen from several terrorist attacks where Jews have been murdered without any means of defense. Somehow, Arab citizens have more access to guns than non-military Jewish citizens in Israel. Not to be political, but this is one reason, among others, I vehemently supported pro-private firearm ownership candidate Moshe Feiglin of Zehut and his party.
So, yes, Jews in America have been victims of Anti-Semitic attacks, but unlike other countries like France, Germany, England and sadly, even Israel, we have chosen to be unarmed and to trust the police to help us and our neighbors not to hurt us without any means of defense. In USA, we have other options to protect our communities if we so chose and that is a very valuable choice to a person like me, who looks at how preivous governments have failed my relatives. Most of my relatives in Europe were massacred either by invading forces (Nazis) or by their own leaders and fellow countrymen, like in Russia/Ukraine/Belarus. In my grandmother's village of Schedryn, Belarus , all the Jews in the village were forced to dig their own graves before being systematically exterminated. THey had no weapons or means to defend themselves.
I agree that training is very important, but people over-estimate how much training is really needed to hit a target at 15 yards with an AR-15 or any long rifle. Now, keeping yourself calm and being able to focus on your target with someone pointing a gun and shooting at you is a whole other story. I would gladly bring my AR-15 or AK-47 and stand watch at any synagogue that would welcome me if they allow it. I'm not former military, but have had enough training to feel confident of taking out any target within 300 yards. I use to be able to hit steel plates with a ROmanian WASR AK-47 with iron sights at 500 yards and I am hardly any sharpshooter or sniper. I've gotten a bit rusty over the years, but hoping to start hitting the range again soon with my AR-15s. Plinking with 5.56 rounds is pretty cost effective and shooting decent groups at 100 yards is not too challenging, even with cheaper ammo. I have in the past looked for other Jews who would like to go out and start a shooting club so we can hone our skills and keep them sharp. What other group of people should vigilantly try to defend and train their communities more than Jewish people? We have quite a history of oppression and trying to the words NEVER AGAIN should mean something more than voting for the right candidate or depending on the right police department to save us.
There is nothing scary about an AK-47 or AR-15, they are just long rifles fed with magazines and can inflict no more damage than your M1A, SKS, bolt rifle or even a 12ga pump shotgun. At close quarters you want to look into the type of ammunition that would not penetrate through walls, although its a double edge sword. A lot of these bad guys are dawning body armor these days and you would want to have rounds that can penetrate armor. If anyone remembers the DC shooters, they inflicted terror on the world with merely a 22 bolt gun. If they ever do decide to ban AR-15 or other semi auto rifles, believe me, these nutjobs will just start hiding on rooftops and picking people off with bolt guns and causing much more terror than these crazy melees into the grocery store or Wal-Mart like they are doing now. It is much easier to stop a shooter running into a building with a semi auto rifle than someone hiding on a rooftop with a bolt-action long range rifle. The media and politicians will not tell you this, because it doesn't sell well right now. The only reason these maniacs achieve what they do is that there is no armed person there to stop their melee attack.
Level III body armor with head protection should be supplied to anybody who openly displays themselves as security and a weapon, as many of these shooters are also wearing Level III body armor that can withstand even higher caliber rifle rounds.
There is safety in numbers and many accessories to assist with aim. My carry gun is a S&W M&P 9mm w/CT laser grips. Laser sights can aid people in quick point shooting situations, especially for someone with less training. Every person can learn the basics of gun safety and proper sight alignment and trigger control with an 8 hour firearm course. I took an 8 hour NRA certified firearm course with Oregon State Police a while back which is just the basic requirements your average police officer must go through. They are worth the money and time.
As far as using a pistol against a rifle, that is a big challenge. The old saying don't bring a knife to a gunfight applies here. If you have a pistol and are engaging a person with body armor and a rifle you are at a great disadvantage. That is why you would hope at least a few people would be carrying and prepared.
In the past, they would train people to shoot center mass, but with the more frequent use of body armor, more and more law enforcement agencies and military are training for head shots. The old saying is 2 and 1.. Two in the chest and one in the head is what you should be aiming for. Many may think this is a joke, but when you are in a life/death situation, your training is only thing you will think about when adrenaline is pumping. You want to train for those head shots, as they could be a matter of life/death.
Unlike your average street thug who may be desperate and untrained and a bullet would take him down, many of these guys come very prepared with semi auto rifles, body armor and some with considerable or moderate training. Never assume a person on a mission like this would be so easy to take out with just a pistol. Assume the worst, that they will be heavily armed and wearing body armor, including a helmet, which New Zealand and what appears this German shooter both were wearing.
Last edited by RotseCherut; 10-10-2019 at 03:46 PM..
Well, RotseCherut, all I can say to all that is that your experience has not been my experience. I live in New York and the Jews I know have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about protecting themselves by any means necessary. I even know one (a woman) who had served in Israel's military (which, as you may be aware, is required of most Israeli citizens).
Jews being fearful of self-defense is a stereotype that doesn't go down well where I live.
After talking with MightyQueen, both of your moderators are appalled at the senseless attack that took place in Germany.
That being said, we are puzzled by the mention of an AK-47 in the opening post and the extensive posting about guns. This forum is about Judaism within the Religion and Spirituality area. City-Data has forums for Politics and Other Controversies, Current Events, and Guns and Hunting. Surely one of those is a better place to discuss guns [and especially the 2nd Amendment] than a forum dedicated to the topic of religion.
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