Johnson City Development (Knoxville, Chattanooga, Kingsport: amusement park, job market, cinema)

[jjbradleynyc]

Originally Posted by Serious Conversation

I actually agree with leaving this alone.

Both Tri-Cities Crossing and The Falls were designed to complete with The Pinnacle. The Falls is very slowly coming along, but won't ever catch up. The Crossing is nothing but grated land.

There is absolutely no need for yet another new retail center outside the cities. All this will do is poach stores from JC. The development will do well for a short bit then struggle. Meanwhile, the JC Mall will end up like Fort Henry.

Exactly. The area is already way over-retailed, as-is. The downtowns are struggling to survive and attract retail in general. Add in more sprawling retail in the middle of sparsely populated suburbs, and it just drains away retail that could locate within the cities and creates future empty shopping centers.

Very dated mindset with this prospective plan. They would do much better creating a residential subdivision or condos/apartments on that site.

[Serious Conversation]

Originally Posted by jjbradleynyc

Exactly. The area is already way over-retailed, as-is. The downtowns are struggling to survive and attract retail in general. Add in more sprawling retail in the middle of sparsely populated suburbs, and it just drains away retail that could locate within the cities and creates future empty shopping centers.

Very dated mindset with this prospective plan. They would do much better creating a residential subdivision or condos/apartments on that site.

This is what ticks me off.

We have umpteen sporting goods stores here. I need a life jacket for summer watersports. I'm a bigger guy. I need either an XL or XXL vest depending on the cut.

I went to Academy, Mahoney's, and Dick's. Neither Academy or Dick's had a XXL vest. The XL barely went over my shoulders and I couldn't get the chest buckled, much less the belly. Mahoney's had a vest that fit, but they wanted $100 for it.

I can get a similar vest off Amazon in any color I want for $40 shipped to my door. I'm a local outdoorsman. I want to give local stores my business. Sporting goods stores don't really carry product for weightlifter types. I rarely find anything I need locally. With that kind of price differential, I'll order online every time.

Let's say this development gets built - they may lure Dick's and Academy from their current locations with cheaper rent or whatever, but then you have empty stores.

If this place can get Costco, an Apple store, or something more upscale, by all means, go for it. If they're just shuffling existing retail space around, they can go pound sand.

[jjbradleynyc]

Originally Posted by Serious Conversation

This is what ticks me off.

We have umpteen sporting goods stores here. I need a life jacket for summer watersports. I'm a bigger guy. I need either an XL or XXL vest depending on the cut.

I went to Academy, Mahoney's, and Dick's. Neither Academy or Dick's had a XXL vest. The XL barely went over my shoulders and I couldn't get the chest buckled, much less the belly. Mahoney's had a vest that fit, but they wanted $100 for it.

I can get a similar vest off Amazon in any color I want for $40 shipped to my door. I'm a local outdoorsman. I want to give local stores my business. Sporting goods stores don't really carry product for weightlifter types. I rarely find anything I need locally. With that kind of price differential, I'll order online every time.

Let's say this development gets built - they may lure Dick's and Academy from their current locations with cheaper rent or whatever, but then you have empty stores.

If this place can get Costco, an Apple store, or something more upscale, by all means, go for it. If they're just shuffling existing retail space around, they can go pound sand.

Yeah, that's a big problem. Did you check out Bass Pro at all?

But you do illustrate exactly the issue that brick and mortar stores face. Amazon can destroy them so easily because Amazon is efficient, has good selection and good prices. And you can live practically anywhere, and order it to be there fast.

I agree if they build "destination style" shopping or restaurants that include stores not in this area previously, like Apple, Chipotle, Costco, or REI, etc., then it would be more of a reason to be built and to visit. But if it is built to sit mostly vacant and lures in repetitive retail already in the area, it's a terrible idea.

[Rangerred]

I know at one time, a high-end retail development was talked about for Boones Creek but this was probably 10+ years ago. Whatever gets built it needs to be destination retail an include dining/entertainment options. I'm thinking places like Costco, REI, Orvis, Pottery Barn, Apple, World Market, Main Event/Dave & Busters, Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, etc. Ideally, it could be less of a 1990's Pinnacle-like development and more faux-urban similar to Biltmore Park Town Square.

[PacersFan]

Originally Posted by Serious Conversation

This is what ticks me off.


I can get a similar vest off Amazon in any color I want for $40 shipped to my door. I'm a local outdoorsman. I want to give local stores my business. Sporting goods stores don't really carry product for weightlifter types. I rarely find anything I need locally. With that kind of price differential, I'll order online every time.

I totally agree. I needed youth size golf shorts. Nope. Nowhere. I had to order online. I WAS able to get them from JCPenney online, but they did not have them in the store.

I prefer to shop local too, but when you can't find something and waste hours looking for it, it is super frustrating.

[Serious Conversation]

Originally Posted by Rangerred

I know at one time, a high-end retail development was talked about for Boones Creek but this was probably 10+ years ago. Whatever gets built it needs to be destination retail an include dining/entertainment options. I'm thinking places like Costco, REI, Orvis, Pottery Barn, Apple, World Market, Main Event/Dave & Busters, Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, etc. Ideally, it could be less of a 1990's Pinnacle-like development and more faux-urban similar to Biltmore Park Town Square.

Here's an updated article.

https://www.wjhl.com/local/pinnacle-...ity/1974251674

This new article links back to another article where Pinnacle developer Steve Johnson said that this type of retail is probably not going to come to the Tri-Cities due to low area incomes, lack of population/population density, and other "demographic factors."

Take a look at something like REI. I like outdoors stuff, but is it really needed with all the other outdoors type of stores? I just looked at daypacks on their website. You can easily spend $100 or more on a pack from REI. You can get a similar pack off Amazon for under $25. Orvis is in the same situation - too high dollar, too many alternatives. Academy Sports is far more reasonable. Even Dick's, which is expensive compared to Academy, seems to target a different customer base than REI/Orvis.

The whole Costco thing is mind-boggling to me. Costco and Sam's sell a lot of similar merchandise at similar prices (though Costco has more services and has more higher end products), but Sam's puts stores in smaller towns and poorer areas. Costco could likely do fine in these areas as well, but the culture and people shopping at the two stores could not be more different.

[sprintuser2014]

Originally Posted by Rangerred

I know at one time, a high-end retail development was talked about for Boones Creek but this was probably 10+ years ago. Whatever gets built it needs to be destination retail an include dining/entertainment options. I'm thinking places like Costco, REI, Orvis, Pottery Barn, Apple, World Market, Main Event/Dave & Busters, Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, etc. Ideally, it could be less of a 1990's Pinnacle-like development and more faux-urban similar to Biltmore Park Town Square.

Most of these retailers are a pipe dream and will never happen here. Costco has already said they aren't interested in this area. That we are too small and don't have enough income. Apple, Whole Foods, etc... It's all going to be the same. This is a lower class middle area, we are never going to have higher end retail.

[Rangerred]

I firmly believe the only reason the law was introduced was because a developer was pushing it. This isn't being done on pure speculation. The law also stipulates that to be eligible for incentives, the retailer must not move from within 30 miles unless they are increasing square footage by 30% or greater. This was done to keep the Boones Creek development from simply poaching from elsewhere in JC or even The Pinnacle. The term "high-end" retail has been used several times by city officials when describing the development whatever "high-end" actually means.

Developers do their homework and know what gaps exist in the region's retail, dining, and entertainment scene. How many transactions are made every month at establishments in Knoxville, Asheville, and Greenville-Spartanburg by people with Tri-Cities zip codes? I would imagine more than one might think. This region is not as poor as is often assumed. Our numbers aren't too far below the Asheville region who have a wider variety of retail offerings.

Just as an example, the Trek store in JC is doing an insane amount of business. The average cost of a bicycle going out the door of Trek is probably in the $2k range. I doubt five years ago anyone would have predicted a store in downtown Johnson City selling high end bicycles would thrive.

We already have higher end retail in the region, at least in Johnson City. Trek is higher end and I would also put in that category stores like Chico, J.Jill, Talbots, Monkees, and even Mahoney's.

[Serious Conversation]

While the local income numbers may not be far below Asheville, Asheville’s retail scene is also buoyed by a lot of tourists and wealth earned elsewhere that isn’t going to show in local income numbers.

[sprintuser2014]

Asheville is a huge tourist area and is constantly rated as one of the best places in the US to visit, especially small town lists. It's an entirely different market. Plus the culture of Asheville supports higher end grocery and food in that regards.