[Packrat1]

I have and do make money at card counting. The edge is slim and you must be very picky at which games you play ie: number of decks, penetration, game rules and casino heat.

It's hard work and requires a lot of practice to stay sharp. I have only had one successfull "student" everyone else fails to put in the hours required to practice. As far as Steve Wynn saying no one comes out a winner then why do Casinos continually, trespass and back off card counters? Because it works but only for a small few.

If you want a taste of card counting read Knock Out Blackjack, then Stanford Wong's Professional Blackjack and finally Blackjack Attack 3. Check out bj21.com (and for fun read Burning the Tables in Las Vegas)

Most people come to Vegas to have fun and drink while they gamble and consider it work to count cards.

Coupons ie: match plays and promotions also can give you an edge ie: blackjack pays 2 to 1 and many casinos give a good match play once a month ie: Casino Royale.

[Buzz123]

Originally Posted by Packrat1

I have and do make money at card counting. The edge is slim and you must be very picky at which games you play ie: number of decks, penetration, game rules and casino heat.

It's hard work and requires a lot of practice to stay sharp. I have only had one successfull "student" everyone else fails to put in the hours required to practice. As far as Steve Wynn saying no one comes out a winner then why do Casinos continually, trespass and back off card counters? Because it works but only for a small few.

If you want a taste of card counting read Knock Out Blackjack, then Stanford Wong's Professional Blackjack and finally Blackjack Attack 3. Check out bj21.com (and for fun read Burning the Tables in Las Vegas)

Most people come to Vegas to have fun and drink while they gamble and consider it work to count cards.

Coupons ie: match plays and promotions also can give you an edge ie: blackjack pays 2 to 1 and many casinos give a good match play once a month ie: Casino Royale.

Do you continuously win enough to live on?

[ClarkGrisowld]

if you are talking 100k to live on, you'd probably need a bankroll of $1M

It's easy to keep playing if you hit early, but the drawdowns can be severe

[delgadobb]

As far as the OP's question, I'd think it would be possible but highly improbable given that in the long run, the house always wins. You can eke out a small advantage (i.e. card counting in blackjack), but even in that situation you need a HUGE bankroll to cushion against gamblers' ruin. If you get to the point that you have a 5-10% advantage, the casino will likely have noticed you & be prepared to take alternative measures.

What Yeti & Packrat describe is extremely rare & requires so much preparation & precision that it hardly seems worth it. Couldn't you make more $$$ doing something else with that skill set? The payoff would have to be mighty big to make it worthwhile ...

Keep in mind I'm saying that as someone who makes decent $$$ playing poker as a hobby. I could probably do better in a high-level sales/marketing job like I used to, but (1) The hours would be insane (2) So would the travel & (3) there would always be the stress of 'what have you done for us lately?' As long as I'm not depending on poker to put food on the table (other job for that), I can enjoy it & have a nice supplemental income. It allows me to have some flexibility with my schedule - I pick & choose when to play (for the most part) & enjoy what I do. With poker, at times I can get my money in as a 70%, 80% or 90+% favorite. That doesn't happen in other table games.

I used to try to count cards at blackjack (with some success), but even when the deck gets rich in big cards your advantage is mostly in the big blackjack payoffs with bigger bets. The dealer can make good hands as well, so it can cut both ways - there's no guarantees. I just can't see how someone could make a living at table games without a whole lot of expertise & deception (to avoid attention from the casino). At a minimum, it would require razor sharp skills, patience/persistence & an incredibly deep bankroll to absorb streaks of bad luck. By the time you get a system in place & are proficient, the casino(s) will notice & ask you to walk.

[ClarkGrisowld]

Originally Posted by delgadobb

I used to try to count cards at blackjack (with some success), but even when the deck gets rich in big cards your advantage is mostly in the big blackjack payoffs with bigger bets. The dealer can make good hands as well, so it can cut both ways - there's no guarantees. I just can't see how someone could make a living at table games without a whole lot of expertise & deception (to avoid attention from the casino). At a minimum, it would require razor sharp skills, patience/persistence & an incredibly deep bankroll to absorb streaks of bad luck. By the time you get a system in place & are proficient, the casino(s) will notice & ask you to walk.

That's mostly why I think it may be almost impossible to earn a living counting cards. MIT was a team, where they had multiple people grinding (you actually don't get a real nice favorable count that often) and to avoid detection they had someone swoop in with huge bets. You don't get away with doing that yourself for very long as that betting pattern is such a dead giveaway, even if your counting isn't obvious.

On the other hand, with all the casinos all over the world, perhaps you could get away with this if you are only taking a casino for decent (not obscene, maybe $3-$5k) money once or twice a year. But then I'd imagine the airfare alone would be a hard expense to overcome.

[Tiger Beer]

The funny thing about card counting at the blackjack tables...

For the most part, everything is SO predictable...I mean certain rules, if dealer shows 6, you should stay on your 12...if he shows J, you should keep hitting until you get above 16...etc. Certain combos of cards and you should always split, etc.

If you DON'T do the same rules that EVERYONE else does, they people complain you are 'taking their cards' or 'messing up the deck', etc.

THEREFORE...if you were counting cards, and doing unorthodox moves away from the norm (which is GENERALLY a VERY bad idea anyways), then you'd get that pressure of the 'whats wrong with you' kind...plus anyways, generally there is always SOME guy at the table mentioning how many low cards or face cards they've seen, etc. But generally its better to just stick with the statistically best 'rules' anyways, with a few exceptions if you are aware of what cards have been seen a lot, etc. - card counting.

Anyways...generally, having got into the game for awhile...it just becomes way too dull, robotic, etc...it becomes more like work...and not a very financially productive day at work either. Stuck at a blackjack table trying to earn over whatever else you could do much more easier at more pay per hour...I'd think I'd rather do the honest days work.

POKER is really the only game worthwhile, in my opinion, no limit hold'em poker in particular.

[las vegas drunk]

I am most interested in beating a game that is "considered" unbeatable. That would rule out blackjack or poker. I also do not like roulette as the house edge is 5.26% which is way to high. That is why I am interested in craps. The house edge is very low at 1.41% on the pass line. Craps is definitely my favorite game.

[jfkIII]

mine, too. Need a large bankroll, though, to ride out the streaks. The money tends to go fast...in either direction.

[Fastrudy]

I am Naive. What is wrong with my logic here?
Casinos serve the public.
Casinos have rules that must be obeyed.
A person, obeying the casino rules, begins to win.
The Casino determines that the person is winning 'too much'.
The Casino throws you out.

What rights does the casino has to do this and not get sued by the customer?

[Yeti]

"We refuse the right to serve anyone" Its private property and a private business. They can thrown anyone they want out.