Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
20K.. Dont be ridiculous... Everyone on City-Data says it shouldnt cost more than $4K... Just get the Mexicans from the Home Depot parking lot. They'll do a good job, right?
Of course, just head down to Freeport Homedepot and pick up some of the good old boy's playing soccer in the parking lot!
If it's a 1/2 bath it shouldn't be more than a few grand to hire a pro.
This is just it - it "shouldn't" be. But people call in full-service companies to get quotes for a small job and they must give what it takes to make a profit for them. Also keeping in mind they have to consider that they're there for a week and are unable to potentially earn more elsewhere with that time (especially if they're busy). This can also contribute to their not getting back with quotes in a timely manner - they don't think the job is worthwhile to them.
These estimates are all high and can be done cheaper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gx89
I never said the estimates where high. .
Seems pretty black and white to me that you said the estimates were high...
I don't mind people who want to do work themselves or hire a handyman. God bless. Sometimes I bring my lunch to work so save a few bucks because I don't feel like going to the deli. That is your right and if you want to go that route, go for it.
The thing that makes me angry is when people say that the professional's estimate are high. They are not high. That is the going rate to survive in a competitive industry that contains a lot of overhead. Many of these true general contractors are paying 25k-45k just in liability insurance a year if they are a full service construction company that also does second floors, roofing, siding, and extensions.
If the bathroom is a complete gut and redo with tile on floor, 4' on all walls, and all shower walls and ceiling expect to pay big boy pricing from a real contractor.
Seems pretty black and white to me that you said the estimates were high...
I don't mind people who want to do work themselves or hire a handyman. God bless. Sometimes I bring my lunch to work so save a few bucks because I don't feel like going to the deli. That is your right and if you want to go that route, go for it.
The thing that makes me angry is when people say that the professional's estimate are high. They are not high. That is the going rate to survive in a competitive industry that contains a lot of overhead. Many of these true general contractors are paying 25k-45k just in liability insurance a year if they are a full service construction company that also does second floors, roofing, siding, and extensions.
If the bathroom is a complete gut and redo with tile on floor, 4' on all walls, and all shower walls and ceiling expect to pay big boy pricing from a real contractor.
That was in reference to my price list if he hired a day laborer not a licensed contractor. The quotes he got for a full bath from reputable company are what I would expect them to be.
Seems pretty black and white to me that you said the estimates were high...
I don't mind people who want to do work themselves or hire a handyman. God bless. Sometimes I bring my lunch to work so save a few bucks because I don't feel like going to the deli. That is your right and if you want to go that route, go for it.
The thing that makes me angry is when people say that the professional's estimate are high. They are not high. That is the going rate to survive in a competitive industry that contains a lot of overhead. Many of these true general contractors are paying 25k-45k just in liability insurance a year if they are a full service construction company that also does second floors, roofing, siding, and extensions.
If the bathroom is a complete gut and redo with tile on floor, 4' on all walls, and all shower walls and ceiling expect to pay big boy pricing from a real contractor.
I think you misread his email. I read it as he said his own estimate of day laborers is high.
That was in reference to my price list if he hired a day laborer not a licensed contractor. The quotes he got for a full bath from reputable company are what I would expect them to be.
You obviously have never put an extension on your house then. Never heard of extension selling for 15k. The last 3 extensions I drew were sold for 50k, 67k, and 42k.... 15k is standard price to spend on a bathroom not an extension.
Average gut and replacement for a 5'x7' bathroom will cost 10k-12k. Tile and plumbing fixtures can be 2k-5k.
Most contractors will complete in 5 days and probably only make around 2k profit on the job after they pay out labor and overhead...
$2,000/5 days =$400 profit per day.. I think $400 a day profit for a company seems pretty reasonable considering that a lot of work goes into the 5 day bathroom remodel besides the 5 days of actually laboring. You pay a larger profit margin to real estate agents, car salesman and furniture salesman yet for some reason, people love to villainize the contractor.
All of the headaches, coordination, free estimates and warranties make that $400 a day barely seem worth it.. These guys are self employed entrepreneurs, they don't get to clock into at job a 9am and leave at 5pm... They also don't have the luxury of knowing that a pay check is coming every week. They have to go out and get it so they can feed their families and their crew's families.
It's even worse on big jobs. People will tip a waiter 20% after working for an hour but get angry if the contractor walks away with 10% after 8 weeks of laboring...
Just some food for thought from an old architect who has been on all sides of the spectrum.. Architect, contractor and homeowner... If you don't want to spend that kind of money that's fine, hire a hack or an unlicensed guy who does sidework.. Just remember they are not expensive, you are just cheap.
"Drops the mic"
So $1500-2000 in appliances and another thousand in tile/trim/board, plus some incidentals (Figure $3500) means that the total should be $10-12K which puts the labor rate at $162-212/hr. Sorry, maybe rework your figures so that the remodeler isn't coming out with a salary of $300,000/yr salary.
You're calculating numbers for one man,one week. If one man is doing a full gut remodel of a 5x8 bathroom in a week, he's not doing a very good job. There's a lot that goes into that little room, it's not going to be rebuilt properly in just 40 man-hours. I've done a dozen bathrooms a year for the last decade, and the typical 5x7 takes about 75 man-hours to gut and rebuild, regardless of the cost of finish items. (It takes about the same amount of time to drop in the $150 Home Depot tub as it does the $450 Americast tub from the plumbing house. )
I dont think DesignBuild was thinking it was a 40 man-hour job in his calculations above. He mentioned having to payout for labor as well as overhead.
Speaking of overhead, dont forget to count the cost of tools, replacements when they break, work clothes, work truck, trailer, maintenance and repairs on those, insurance, registration, fuel, office supplies, business cards and other advertising. Also licenses and insurance each year (I personally have 3 separate licenses to maintain). Then there's the items we generally dont incorporate into every bid but still need to purchase like specialty screws and other miscellaneous hardware, garbage bags, paint equipment (roller handles, buckets, etc), wire, copper pipe fittings, etc.
Now I know most city-data folks dont think Contractors bother paying income taxes, but for those of us who do, we get hit with the self-employment tax, and my personal favorite- the MTA tax. Why they decided to saddle us with this one, I just dont understand. How many contractors do you know that take a train to the job daily? Why do they make us supplement their system? Thanks New York State...
Last, but certainly not least, is the unpaid hours contractors have to put in each week. We're expected to do free estimates, right? The homeowners standard reply is that it should just be part of doing business. Then there's the time spent hand-holding homeowners through all phases of their project. The hours of phone calls during the planning stage, the after hours phone calls with discussions and changes about the work completed that day. If something happens to break that I installed, I have to spend the time and money to install a replacement. This is all part of my overhead.
So that $162/hr figure mentioned above is just ridiculous. If you count up all the overhead and include the unpaid hours spent throughout the year, a contractor would be lucky to gross $100K/yr doing only $12K bathrooms. After taxes, it wouldnt be worth the headaches to actually be in business for oneself. It would be easier to get a job, do your 9-5, and go home to peace and quiet until the next morning.
So $1500-2000 in appliances and another thousand in tile/trim/board, plus some incidentals (Figure $3500) means that the total should be $10-12K which puts the labor rate at $162-212/hr. Sorry, maybe rework your figures so that the remodeler isn't coming out with a salary of $300,000/yr salary.
Dude you are seriously out of your mind... You keep thinking about pricing as an individual and not as a company.. The overhead and payroll for most construction companies is $1,000-$1,800 a day.
Lets be fair and go in the middle.
$1,400 x 5 days = $7,000 just to show up for the project... No profit. Just enough money to pay the crew, workers comp insurance, liability insurance, auto insurance, payroll taxes, operating cost, etc...
Then most licensed plumbers are going to be $1,500 for a rip out and replace. Let's add $300 for a licensed electrician.
Lets say all of the insulation, drywall, cement board, new door, trim, door hardware, concrete substrate, metal lathe, thin set, dumpster or dumping fees and whatever else we need cost another $1,200.
What do you know... That all adds up to $10,000! So what is wrong if the contractor want's to charge $11,500 or $12,000.
Now after all of the free estimates and coordination with vendors, and distributors on the clients behalf.... Is it crazy for the company to make $1,500 or $2,000. I'm not talking about the owner, I'm talking about the company. The owner doesn't pocket that profit, the company does and it usualy gets absorbed into other bs down the line.
Considering it is a business, I don't think it is crazy for a construction company to want to make a few hundred a day in profit considering that most of that profit will end up covering unexpected cost on other jobs or operation cost...
Stop thinking about this as a person throwing tile on the wall and think about a real company...
And then remember after the $12,00 the client spends their own money or allowances and spends another 3k-5k on plumbing fixtures and tile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Trust me, people pay this pricing all the time.. Maybe not your friends but overall it is the standard!
You're calculating numbers for one man,one week. If one man is doing a full gut remodel of a 5x8 bathroom in a week, he's not doing a very good job. There's a lot that goes into that little room, it's not going to be rebuilt properly in just 40 man-hours. I've done a dozen bathrooms a year for the last decade, and the typical 5x7 takes about 75 man-hours to gut and rebuild, regardless of the cost of finish items. (It takes about the same amount of time to drop in the $150 Home Depot tub as it does the $450 Americast tub from the plumbing house. )
I dont think DesignBuild was thinking it was a 40 man-hour job in his calculations above. He mentioned having to payout for labor as well as overhead.
Speaking of overhead, dont forget to count the cost of tools, replacements when they break, work clothes, work truck, trailer, maintenance and repairs on those, insurance, registration, fuel, office supplies, business cards and other advertising. Also licenses and insurance each year (I personally have 3 separate licenses to maintain). Then there's the items we generally dont incorporate into every bid but still need to purchase like specialty screws and other miscellaneous hardware, garbage bags, paint equipment (roller handles, buckets, etc), wire, copper pipe fittings, etc.
Now I know most city-data folks dont think Contractors bother paying income taxes, but for those of us who do, we get hit with the self-employment tax, and my personal favorite- the MTA tax. Why they decided to saddle us with this one, I just dont understand. How many contractors do you know that take a train to the job daily? Why do they make us supplement their system? Thanks New York State...
Last, but certainly not least, is the unpaid hours contractors have to put in each week. We're expected to do free estimates, right? The homeowners standard reply is that it should just be part of doing business. Then there's the time spent hand-holding homeowners through all phases of their project. The hours of phone calls during the planning stage, the after hours phone calls with discussions and changes about the work completed that day. If something happens to break that I installed, I have to spend the time and money to install a replacement. This is all part of my overhead.
So that $162/hr figure mentioned above is just ridiculous. If you count up all the overhead and include the unpaid hours spent throughout the year, a contractor would be lucky to gross $100K/yr doing only $12K bathrooms. After taxes, it wouldnt be worth the headaches to actually be in business for oneself. It would be easier to get a job, do your 9-5, and go home to peace and quiet until the next morning.
Right on!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
