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You're using an investment program (SDP) that he could have participated in if he was in a qualifying combat zone (which he wasn't) as an example of overall military compensation? He didn't have this opportunity. Deployment for ten months and no combat? Ok.
He didn't have 10 port calls in that 10 months. He had seven. Fair enough
He got no "bookend standown" when they returned from deployment. He got a four day weekend and had duty one of those days. Really? Honestly all three of my deployments had bookend standowns
Little work before and after deployment??? I spent 26 years in the Navy and we were always swamped before and after deployment...those were our busiest times.again, I did a critical job, on a critical ship, always had standowns
He was only allowed to take 12 days of leave that year at Christmas time. Crazy that the two months he was back fell over Christmas, but I guess if he was only in the us for two months he couldn't take much leave, still you neglected any leave in your example
He has no children and doesn't qualify for EIC (this isn't military compensation anyway)Ok he's not qualified for it, but if he were married some of it would count as much of the military paycheck isn't factored into the EIC calculation
He drew no CH33 educational benefits because he was at sea its deferred compensation, it's value is its use in the future, but you earn it your first enlistment
He used no tricare because he was on a ship for 10 months. The 3k is the value of insurance, not services rendered
They were home for two months standing 4 section duty and got back under way and have only been back in port for two days.
He worked over 84 hours per week so please re-figure using the realistic information and not all your fantasy numbers. He had some 20 hour days mixed in with his normal 12-16 hour days depending on their work load. His division doesn't run two shifts, they have one shift and are required to work until the work is done but have to do a minimum of 12 hours a day seven days a week.
I'd do the math, but I already did once, and you aren't giving me solid numbers anyways, so there's no point. I'd re-crunch everything and you'd find something else that you didn't like. But the straight numbers are what they are, even in a bad year your kid did alright, and the years get better (let's not forget the cakewalk that is most shore duty, dry docks, Trainor by commands, and the like).
You'll forever think your kid is underpaid and overworked. If that were truly the case, no one would stay to 26 years. But fine sailors do stay 'til 26 years, some because the Retirement benefits and Tricare bridge the gap ($32k a year), others need special pays too, and others still need the bonus kick, but the military does retain talent despite the fact that a BM and ET(N) share a base pay chart.
I've heard individuals are quite happy and satisfied with their pay. Overall, the military pay is pretty competitive to other civilian jobs out there. Google military retention pay to see how competitive. However, when accounting for the awesome benefits, one can make a lot more money with their cards played right. It all depends on the skills and talents of the individual and other special circumstances.
Everyone gets these benefits:
-Free Medical
-Free Education (GI and Tuition Assistance)
(I'm sure I'm missing something)
These benefits are earned by special circumstance or with special skills:
-Housing Allowances (varies widely from place to place when base housing isn't available)
-Travel compensations (talking about per dium for those that know)
-Special Pays (there are a ton out there for those that qualify. Ranging from: Hazardous duty, special duty, language pay, Combat Zone Tax free pay, Submarine Pay, Flight Pay, Diving Pay, Parachute Pay, COLA... the list goes on.
The amount of time away from home, long shift hours, and imminent danger some individuals face everyday cannot be quantified in dollars. But, IMO It's in the job description and I think the special pays compensate for the unpleasantness, at least something is better than nothing.
For perspective on pay I'll use this December 2014 Leave and Earning Statement (LES) I found with permission.
Note, this is for a Married Enlisted E-5. No one makes this right after boot camp or in their first 4 years and this takes into account no base housing available in Washington DC hence the BAH and BAS. If there was housing, there would be no BAH. If they weren't married or below ~E-5 or E-4, they'd be in the barracks eating at a chow hall with no BAH or BAS.
Entitlements:
Base Pay: $2,734.50 (E-5 with 7 Years)
BAS (food allowance): $357.55
BAH (housing): $2,193.00 (Washington DC Area with Dependents)
Special Duty Pay (not everyone gets this): $150.00
Total = $5,435.05 paid to this individual every month before taxes.
*Disclosure: In August they received a one time Uniform Allowance of $478.00. Enough money to replace soiled uniforms and money to use throughout the year for dry cleaning/alterations.
After taxes/deductions they made $4,895.82 or $58,749.84/ year. Really good, IMO for the DC area. The average rent is about $1700-2300 for a 2 Bedroom. High cost of living. These numbers would probably be different in Mississippi.
Housing allowance is the only thing not taxed. So the real wages on the W2 is ~$32,1xx.xx after accounting for deductions on the IRA, charitable dontations and other tax credits everyone else is allowed to do. Still pretty good money.
Is the military underpaid? I would say no. Are they over paid? I also think not.
Last edited by delfrogo; 02-14-2015 at 07:06 AM..
Reason: Wording
... He didn't have 10 port calls in that 10 months. He had seven.
10 months 'at-sea' and 7 foreign ports. Sounds like maybe he was not 'at-sea' that whole time after all.
19 'at-sea' deployments here and a career total of two foreign liberty ports [Lisbon in '78 and St. Thomas in '93]. Some sea-going sailors will get to visit one liberty port per decade.
Granted I was home-ported over-seas on two boats, that was where we lived when we were not 'at-sea'.
I've heard individuals are quite happy and satisfied with their pay.
It depends on a lot of factors to include what period are you talking about. In the end, I am satisfied that I reached retirement. In the 1970's I was stationed in Florida (not bad huh?) and as an E-5 was eligible for food stamps for my family... I did not get the food stamps, I was fortunate to have a good part time job pumping gas, fixing flats and driving a wrecker at a gas station.
Quote:
Originally Posted by delfrogo
-Travel compensations (talking about per dium for those that know)
It is called "per diem" which is basically a daily allowance for expenses an organization gives an individual per day to cover living expenses when traveling for work or duty. I collected hundreds of days per diem. I was also away from home during those days. That was before the Internet and cell phones. So months with no contact with the family was not unusual.
Two "short tours" with "Family Separation Pay" of "a dollar a day beginning after your 30th day" was hardly worth it. I had two, "one year" short tours... And about 30 months away from the family in 30 to 90 day periods. I ain't complaining, in 22 years I served much less than 30 days in a "combat zone", there were many who suffered much more. They paid the ultimate price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by delfrogo
The amount of time away from home, long shift hours, and imminent danger some individuals face everyday cannot be quantified in dollars. But, IMO It's in the job description and I think the special pays compensate for the unpleasantness, at least something is better than nothing.
It's not in the job description unless you count the Army term "and other duties as assigned". Vietnam War’s First Combat Casualties, was not in their "job description". “The deaths of U.S. Army military advisors Maj. Dale Buis and Master Sgt. Chester Ovnand marked the beginning of a lengthy war, which became a very divisive event for our society.” Defense.gov News Article: Ceremony Commemorates Vietnam War
So the "U.S. Military is Underpaid Myth..." really depends on a lot of factors... I still have friends, "military buddies" from 40 years ago which I keep in contact with. We are really one big family.
Actually I decided to go back and crunch some numbers as your sons $35k/yr seemed impossible. Looking at the five largest Navy bases the lowest your son could make in direct monetary compensaition as a married shipboard E4 with two years of service and sea pay is a tad above 47,000 in Mayport, and increases even at Norfolk.
But if I toss in the value of our healthcare ($3k per individual), the earned GI Bill benefits, and the earned pension contribution (I'm sure you'd agree these are earned benefits, even if they have non-standard vesting), toss in the tax advantages of BAS and BAH, and that sep pay we are looking at total compensation of $108,668 in Mayport to $134550 in Pearl.
Take your son being deployed from Jan 1 2014, and returning on Nov 1 2014, thats 302 days, but he got 21 days in port w/o duty, at 13 hours a day (let's ignore lunch, smoke breaks and everything else that breaks up a work day) he'd put in 3653 hours in those ten months. He'd then work 300 hours between Nov and Dec in four section duty with 8 hour normal workdays and 12 hour duty days and with those twelve days of leave.
That's 3953 hours worked, for $108668 in total compensation, or $27.49 an hour.
Underpaid? Maybe. But under compensated? Myth Busted.
I don't know about anyone else, but I would have done my time for half the pay. The benefits alone make serving worth it.
When I see people my age drowning in student loans and unable to buy a house without a big down payment then I am quite content with the benefits and pay from my service.
People underestimate the value of a free education. My state school cost 12K per year to attend plus living expenses for in state students.
Did the working hours sometimes suck? Yes. But so did going to school and studying for 12 hours a day and then working 6 hours at the local Pizza joint until midnight so I could pay my bills when I was a freshman in college.
Last edited by Pyramidsurf; 02-14-2015 at 10:10 AM..
Actually I decided to go back and crunch some numbers as your sons $35k/yr seemed impossible. Looking at the five largest Navy bases the lowest your son could make in direct monetary compensaition as a married shipboard E4 with two years of service and sea pay is a tad above 47,000 in Mayport, and increases even at Norfolk.
But if I toss in the value of our healthcare ($3k per individual), the earned GI Bill benefits, and the earned pension contribution (I'm sure you'd agree these are earned benefits, even if they have non-standard vesting), toss in the tax advantages of BAS and BAH, and that sep pay we are looking at total compensation of $108,668 in Mayport to $134550 in Pearl.
Take your son being deployed from Jan 1 2014, and returning on Nov 1 2014, thats 302 days, but he got 21 days in port w/o duty, at 13 hours a day (let's ignore lunch, smoke breaks and everything else that breaks up a work day) he'd put in 3653 hours in those ten months. He'd then work 300 hours between Nov and Dec in four section duty with 8 hour normal workdays and 12 hour duty days and with those twelve days of leave.
That's 3953 hours worked, for $108668 in total compensation, or $27.49 an hour.
Underpaid? Maybe. But under compensated? Myth Busted.
You need to read the OP, it was talking about being underpaid. It wasn't talking about a bunch of benefits that not everyone has access to or will be able to benefit from. I like the way you keep throwing things in that he doesn't get or have access to. He has no access to retirement benefits, he has no access to GI bill benefits, he doesn't get BAS, etc. "Tax advantages" are not military compensation just like your silly example of EIC isn't military compensation. I have tax advantages for investing in an IRA or 401(k) but that doesn't make that part of my current compensation from my civilian employer.
My son is a frocked E4 so he's not getting paid for E4 yet. He made it off the September exam.
I just went and re-figured his pay based off of 2015 numbers. He is currently grossing $40,884/year as a married E3 that just went over 2 years. This isn't what he was making last year while he was on deployment, it is what he's making today. He got to the ship as an unmarried E1 and lived on the ship with no BAH for a long time and his total gross was $18,978.
'He' went off-base and located an apartment to rent. He rented said apartment, and he took the lease to PSD on-base. They gave him BAH [in my day it was called BAQ], and if his rent exceeded BAH then they also cut him in on VHA / COLA [which varies by region].
'He' could have just as easily bought a house instead of renting. That was what I did. I bought a home [that was also a triplex or 5-plex, and then filled them with sailor's families].
It is free housing.
You probably are not accounting for maintenance/repair cost or opportunity cost of down payment and time spent on the property.
You need to read the OP, it was talking about being underpaid. It wasn't talking about a bunch of benefits that not everyone has access to or will be able to benefit from. I like the way you keep throwing things in that he doesn't get or have access to. He has no access to retirement benefits, he has no access to GI bill benefits, he doesn't get BAS, etc. "Tax advantages" are not military compensation just like your silly example of EIC isn't military compensation. I have tax advantages for investing in an IRA or 401(b) but that doesn't make that part of my current compensation from my civilian employer.
My son is a frocked E4 so he's not getting paid for E4 yet. He made it off the September exam.
I just went and re-figured his pay based off of 2015 numbers. He is currently grossing $40,884/year as a married E3 that just went over 2 years. This isn't what he was making last year while he was on deployment, it is what he's making today. He got to the ship as an unmarried E1 and lived on the ship with no BAH for a long time and his total gross was $18,978.
He saves thousands due to BAH and BAS not being taxable and you ignore that, ok.
That's real compensation Chief. That he's getting without additional input, nothing like your own contributions to your retirement accounts.
He's earning that GI Bill, and he's warning that retirement. Even if he's one and done he keeps his GI Bill which puts him at $67,884 just including your figure, healthcare and the GI bill value. Divide that by the 3953 and your E3 got $17.17 an hour, for being a nub.
But sure lets the GI Bill (which is absurd as that's over $72k in BAH alone depending on location, but I'll apease you) and tax advantages and just look at your hand picked 40,884 (and whatever it may or may not include) and the $6k in health care costs. That's still $11.86 an hour. That's huge for someone with an A-school so short they are getting to the fleet as an E1.
Health insurance has no value unless used you say, that's quite possiably the most ill informed statement you've made, but sure lets cut that too. $40,884 / 3953 hours = $10.34/hour. Which is still a whole lot of money for the work we trust E3's with in the Shipboard Navy.
But it doesn't matter what I say, or how much I explain that deferred compensation is real, as are tax advantages, and that shipboard food has a value.
It includes his base pay of $1938.00, his BAH of $1419.00 and his $50 sea pay. = $40,884. Is there something else you'd like to throw in there that he doesn't get like you've been doing?
Again, that is what he is making today...not what he was making while on deployment. Also, it is odd how you are only counting 13 hours a day while deployed for 10 months. Surely you would count 24 hours a day since he is ordered away from home, on a ship and on duty 24 hours a day seven days a week??? How you can only count 13 hours a day for a deployed servicemember is ridiculous. You're also leaving out the other two months of the year and the hours he works along with the duty days, etc.
Since you're wanting to add all these tax advantages and other nonsense why are you not figuring in the overtime he isn't making that he would be working those hours as a civilian, the money a civilian employer would have to pay for food and lodging if they sent an employee away from home on business for 10 months, etc. You're wanting to play the numbers in your favor and ignore everything a civilian would get in similar circumstances.
The GI Bill is through the department of Veterans Affairs and isn't part of his compensation for serving. It is a tool to draw people into serving and sticking around for a certain period of time. Retirement isn't compensation for serving...its a tool to keep a certain number of military members in the service and reach the senior ranks. Are there costs to the taxpayer for these programs? Sure, however, that doesn't make them compensation for current service. Most of who serve in the military will never use the GI Bill or draw retirement.
Last edited by LBTRS; 02-14-2015 at 02:07 PM..
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