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Old 01-26-2021, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Jack-town, Sip by way of TN, AL and FL
1,655 posts, read 1,599,996 times
Reputation: 2844

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruko View Post
Just like anything can be, they are an identity marker. I think that most of the anti-Confederate hullabaloo is worthy of contempt and a colossal distraction from real issues. Conflicts over the previous flag have simply become a thing for 'progressives' to try to own 'conservatives.' The old flag had been around since 1894 and didn't become an issue until some people got the idea that the way to end racism was to erase important aspects of Southern culture and heritage. Totally ridiculous. Nobody was ever built up by tearing someone else down. To the posters who think that the old flag will fade away...do you see how many disused flags are flown throughout this country from as far back as the 1700s? There will always be significant numbers of Mississippians attached to the previous flag.
I understand this viewpoint but honestly the real mistake was every flying these emblems to begin with. The Confederacy lost, it was time to move on. Now, we are dealing with this issue that could have been dealt with years ago. We shouldn't be CELEBRATING Confederate monuments, but they SHOULD be kept in museums, as reminders of our history.

I will say that much of the rage these days is probably coming from a dishonest place, but that doesn't take away from the notion that the monuments were celebrating heroes of the Confederacy.
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Old 01-26-2021, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Born + raised SF Bay; Tyler, TX now WNY
6,500 posts, read 3,121,889 times
Reputation: 6178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruko View Post
Just like anything can be, they are an identity marker. I think that most of the anti-Confederate hullabaloo is worthy of contempt and a colossal distraction from real issues. Conflicts over the previous flag have simply become a thing for 'progressives' to try to own 'conservatives.' The old flag had been around since 1894 and didn't become an issue until some people got the idea that the way to end racism was to erase important aspects of Southern culture and heritage. Totally ridiculous. Nobody was ever built up by tearing someone else down. To the posters who think that the old flag will fade away...do you see how many disused flags are flown throughout this country from as far back as the 1700s? There will always be significant numbers of Mississippians attached to the previous flag.
That’s not really the argument I was going for. I can see why folks hold confederate symbology in contempt.

I just think the idea that we’re supposed to venerate pieces of cloth with arbitrary designs on them is silly.
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Old 01-29-2021, 12:49 PM
 
Location: PNW, CPSouth, JacksonHole, Southampton
3,586 posts, read 5,213,859 times
Reputation: 14205
I just think the idea that we’re supposed to venerate pieces of cloth with arbitrary designs on them is silly.[/quote]

I certainly didn't, when I was a kid (in my adult life, the issue simply has not arisen, somehow). I used to cross my fingers, AND my toes, and throw-in hexing soundalikes into the "pledge", like "where the witches stand", instead of "for which it stands". I mean, the Bible warned us about those false idols, and flags sure did look like false idols, to me.

However, I don't remember anything about the Mississippi flag. I suppose it was up there on the flagpole, but it had absolutely NO impact upon my growing mind. My first memory of it, is from when I made tenants take it off their balcony:

"Take that damn Rebel Flag down. This is not a ----in' slum!"

"Miz vanSnootenhorn, thaaayit ain't no Rebel Flaaaaaayig. Eeeeeyit's uh Missippi Flayyyyig"

"Do you really want to see how fast I can run up those stairs and kick your door in? Take... that... damn... thing... down... NOW!"

But my objections were entirely about aesthetics and social status (mine), and not about symbology or social justice or history. I mean, if I cannot bear the sight of rubies with emeralds (exponentially worse, if you add glaring-white pearls, or the setting is platinum), you can imagine how jarring I find the combination of red, white, and blue (for one thing, it's an incomplete color triad).

Apparently, Bespoke told Warburg, who told Elliman, who told Sotheby's. Or maybe realtors share a secret database. Or maybe it works like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOs-4J6rr-w But when we look at a potential home, the obnoxious flags are gone. Those flags ALWAYS throw clinker-notes into previously-harmonious color compositions.

But back to the coldness of platinum settings:

Gold warms-things-up, and makes color compositions (as Mississippi Mamaws used to say) "more blendy". And that's why I'm shocked at how pleasingly-pretty is Mississippi's new flag. The gold takes the stink off it. Having the stars, and the Magnolia, in a nice Rolls Royce Magnolia creme, would make it even prettier, though.
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Old 01-29-2021, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
15,392 posts, read 11,197,430 times
Reputation: 14907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mississippi Alabama Line View Post
I understand this viewpoint but honestly the real mistake was every flying these emblems to begin with. The Confederacy lost, it was time to move on. Now, we are dealing with this issue that could have been dealt with years ago. We shouldn't be CELEBRATING Confederate monuments, but they SHOULD be kept in museums, as reminders of our history.

I will say that much of the rage these days is probably coming from a dishonest place, but that doesn't take away from the notion that the monuments were celebrating heroes of the Confederacy.
As an out of stater who is fond of Mississippi, I don't even think it is the "Confederacy" part of the flag that comes to mind when we saw the flag as much as it was the 1950s and 1960s associations.

The Magnolia theme isn't as attached to that period (thankfully) and the trees and blooms themselves are beautiful. Much more positive associations with the state with the new flag.

It's nice to look at the flag and not be pulled into thoughts of Byron dela Beckwith, Sam Bowers and those types.
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Old 01-30-2021, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Illinois
3,028 posts, read 2,754,473 times
Reputation: 3962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mississippi Alabama Line View Post
I understand this viewpoint but honestly the real mistake was every flying these emblems to begin with. The Confederacy lost, it was time to move on. Now, we are dealing with this issue that could have been dealt with years ago. We shouldn't be CELEBRATING Confederate monuments, but they SHOULD be kept in museums, as reminders of our history.

I will say that much of the rage these days is probably coming from a dishonest place, but that doesn't take away from the notion that the monuments were celebrating heroes of the Confederacy.
What people like you miss is that this was dealt with years ago. American culture accepted memorialization for Confederates and Union soldiers. It's why there are military bases named after people who served the Confederacy. It's why there was a Confederate memorial at the National Cathedral. This was the compromise in the aftermath of the war. There is no museum capacity for the volume of statues and memorials related to the Civil War. This was the compromise that was reached in the Postbellum era, and a vocal minority of people have successfully cudgeled their way into the mainstream to promote the idea that the Postbellum consensus and compromise needs to be torn up.

I'm a northerner from Chicago (of all places) of southern heritage, and I'm descended from a Confederate veteran who has a fairly illustrious story. I'm not sympathetic with the cause of slavery. But, I am very sympathetic to him as a human and don't see why we shouldn't be able to memorialize veterans of the Civil War without endorsing slavery.
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Old 01-30-2021, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Johns Island
2,424 posts, read 4,056,491 times
Reputation: 3578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruko View Post
What people like you miss is that this was dealt with years ago. American culture accepted memorialization for Confederates and Union soldiers. It's why there are military bases named after people who served the Confederacy. It's why there was a Confederate memorial at the National Cathedral. This was the compromise in the aftermath of the war. There is no museum capacity for the volume of statues and memorials related to the Civil War. This was the compromise that was reached in the Postbellum era,
This is indeed the compromise the USA made, and we have suffered for this ever since.

Our lack of will and fortitude allowed the south to end reconstruction, establish Black codes, Jim crow, and the emergence of the klan. It directly led to the southern strategy of the 50s and beyond. It has brought us to where we are now, where 48% of the country has views that could be described as hateful to others.

It should have instead been dealt with harshly and without mercy, similarly to how things were handled after ww2 in Germany. Definitely that lesson was learned after the failures after the USA civil war, and ww1.
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Old 01-30-2021, 08:55 PM
 
1,200 posts, read 1,501,678 times
Reputation: 2487
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacksonPanther View Post
where 48% of the country has views that could be described as hateful to others.
What? Who is the 48% and who do they hate?
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Old 01-31-2021, 10:21 PM
 
3,616 posts, read 5,309,589 times
Reputation: 5090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruko View Post
What people like you miss is that this was dealt with years ago. American culture accepted memorialization for Confederates and Union soldiers. It's why there are military bases named after people who served the Confederacy. It's why there was a Confederate memorial at the National Cathedral. This was the compromise in the aftermath of the war. There is no museum capacity for the volume of statues and memorials related to the Civil War. This was the compromise that was reached in the Postbellum era, and a vocal minority of people have successfully cudgeled their way into the mainstream to promote the idea that the Postbellum consensus and compromise needs to be torn up.

I'm a northerner from Chicago (of all places) of southern heritage, and I'm descended from a Confederate veteran who has a fairly illustrious story. I'm not sympathetic with the cause of slavery. But, I am very sympathetic to him as a human and don't see why we shouldn't be able to memorialize veterans of the Civil War without endorsing slavery.
Great post!
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Old 01-31-2021, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Southeast Arizona
3,369 posts, read 4,778,258 times
Reputation: 2451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruko View Post
Just like anything can be, they are an identity marker. I think that most of the anti-Confederate hullabaloo is worthy of contempt and a colossal distraction from real issues. Conflicts over the previous flag have simply become a thing for 'progressives' to try to own 'conservatives.' The old flag had been around since 1894 and didn't become an issue until some people got the idea that the way to end racism was to erase important aspects of Southern culture and heritage. Totally ridiculous. Nobody was ever built up by tearing someone else down. To the posters who think that the old flag will fade away...do you see how many disused flags are flown throughout this country from as far back as the 1700s? There will always be significant numbers of Mississippians attached to the previous flag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruko
What people like you miss is that this was dealt with years ago. American culture accepted memorialization for Confederates and Union soldiers. It's why there are military bases named after people who served the Confederacy. It's why there was a Confederate memorial at the National Cathedral. This was the compromise in the aftermath of the war. There is no museum capacity for the volume of statues and memorials related to the Civil War. This was the compromise that was reached in the Postbellum era, and a vocal minority of people have successfully cudgeled their way into the mainstream to promote the idea that the Postbellum consensus and compromise needs to be torn up.

I'm a northerner from Chicago (of all places) of southern heritage, and I'm descended from a Confederate veteran who has a fairly illustrious story. I'm not sympathetic with the cause of slavery. But, I am very sympathetic to him as a human and don't see why we shouldn't be able to memorialize veterans of the Civil War without endorsing slavery.

Yes sir. Love these posts! And tearing up that post-war Reconciliation, has extremely bad connotations for the future. I said that almost instantaneously after the Charleston shooting and they came after the Battle Flag. Because then, The Dukes of Hazzard, Smokey and the Bandit, battlefields, historical sites, reruns of Matlock and In The Heat of the Night all became targets.

I'm a history buff, mainly because my foray into Civil War history began with doing my grandma's genealogy and research into her Confederate veteran ancestors from Texas.

As another out-of-stater that has a strong affinity for the state, my journey to Mississippi began with a movie called O Brother Where Art Thou?, then the 2001 flag vote which I somewhat remember at the time, then a summer vacation trip to Vicksburg and New Orleans during my Sophomore year in college in 2010. Then, attempting Grad School at Ole Miss. I never got to Oxford for school, but I made sure I visited Oxford, the Delta, Senatobia, Vicksburg, Natchez, Corinth, and Shiloh as often as I could from 2014-2019. Even smaller towns like Carrolton, Grand Gulf, Clarksdale, Tishomingo, and Pontotoc.

I'll tell you right now, I made friends with many Civil War-buffs in the state, including state historians like H. Grady Howell Jr. and the support for the 1894 flag is overwhelming to downright fanatical with many people there. The SEC and NCAA can intimidate politicians but it's baked into the state's DNA, like the Gadsden is into America's broader consciousness.

My opinion? The new flag is at least decent looking, looks better than the 2001 "alternative" flag did. But I am a staunch supporter of the 1894 flag, and because of this broo-ha-ha I own many of them now. So to me, the 1894 flag will always be the true flag. Because my memories in the state were forged under it.
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Old 02-01-2021, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Jack-town, Sip by way of TN, AL and FL
1,655 posts, read 1,599,996 times
Reputation: 2844
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacksonPanther View Post
It has brought us to where we are now, where 48% of the country has views that could be described as hateful to others.
You were doing fine until you post idiotic garbage like this.

Let me let you in on a little fact. Even if you were correct, you will never be able to control what another person thinks, just like they cannot control what you think. It's a futile effort, and it has contributed to YOU being more full of hate than the people you claim hate others. Jealousy will do this to you as well.

Look in the mirror. It starts there.
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