I-161 and I-143 (house, property tax, living)

[nature's cathedral]

I am normally quite fond of initiative petitons, but after reading the Montana Supreme Court case involving the takings clause in relation to I-143 I am quite suspect. The dissent in the case (Judge Nelson)described the actions of the proponents of 143 basically as a hoax that did not meet the claimed reasons, but was designed for the sole purpose of destroying raised ranch hunting for profit.

I am highly suspect of targeting the economic interests and property rights of another.

Are these environmentalist groups in drag? Is it particular business entities using the laws to promote their own agenda? Was it a version of class warfare? I honestly don't know.

Is it just a coincidence that the Elk populations have further imploded since 143? Is it more than just the wolves? How many jobs did 143 destroy?

Is 161 the same?

Also how are the elk populations in area's without wolves doing? How are the Elk populations doing in area's that still allow ranch raised hunting?
Do elk fair better with wolves when buffalo are also present?

Thanks.

Either way I am voting for Swandal for Supreme Court, because property rights are tantamount to freedom.

[Rickers]

I have not had the chance to read those yet but November is getting closer (my birthday month ~ hint hint, I need a new truck) and I do vote so I better go snooping on the issues so I can vote responsibly.
When I first looked at the title of you post I thought, hey there are no interstate freeways called I-161 or I-143 here !

[Mt-7]

So did I...
I'll be looking this up. This is a good idea for a thread...

[Reziac]

Initiatives sound good on the surface, but having watched 'em for 25 years here in the Granola State, I can tell you that 90% of the time they're strictly stealth legislation for some special interest, and almost all the remainder are backed by fruitcakes who talk a good line but in fact do a lot of harm (like fanatic treehuggers). And because the average voter doesn't read (let alone analyze) the ENTIRE proposition, they are often fooled into voting for something that will cost 'em a bundle in fees or taxes or higher prices or lost rights, and is certainly not in the citizens' best interest.

So... read the fine print and then follow the money. The money trail on voter initiatives very rarely leads back to anything you'd care to support, were it laid out in plain language.

Out of all the hundreds of voter initiatives that have passed in CA, or have been on the ballot, I can only think of ONE that actually had a positive impact on the average citizen, and that was Prop13 which limited property tax increases.

=======

"Property rights are tantamount to freedom."

Exactly so. Or to put it a little more crudely, money is freedom. If someone takes your money or property (and your life is YOURS and therefore a form of property) they have impinged on your freedom and damaged your property (your life).

Also, I have come to believe that it is preferable to turn a blind eye to private ugliness in personal behaviour, and best to control it mainly through the ancient technique of shunning -- because when we try to eliminate all such behaviour via law and penalties, it starts to impact property rights (including control of your own life) for everyone. It is better that one person do evil in his own home and to his own property, than that all suffer because of laws meant to suppress that single evil.

The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
-- H. L. Mencken

.

[Rickers]

We better get a proposition H on the ballot if it's not too late cuz we're gonna need it for the pain from the reaming we all got after the election has gone away.

[nature's cathedral]

I am surprised that I haven't had more responses. I thought this post would be the Montana forum equivalent of David Allen Coe's "You never even called me by my name" I have wolves, elk, hunting, ballot initiatives, corrupt judges, and questionable special interests. What have I missed?

[Rickers]

Too much apathy, nobody seems to care or they are too preoccupied with living from day to day trying to keep their screaming kids from driving them nuts.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by nature's cathedral

I am surprised that I haven't had more responses. I thought this post would be the Montana forum equivalent of David Allen Coe's "You never even called me by my name" I have wolves, elk, hunting, ballot initiatives, corrupt judges, and questionable special interests. What have I missed?

Mama, trains, trucks, prison, and gettin' drunk.

What's really needed is a ballot initiative to prohibit ballot initiatives.

[nature's cathedral]

Your right I forgot grow house and medical marijuana.

[Reziac]

I was drunk the day my ma got out of prison
Where she'd been doin' ten for growin' that ol' weed
But by the time I got to her house in my pickup truck
All her homegrown meds had done all gone to seed

Nah, it just ain't David Allen Coe