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I think the ROC is totally fine with the idea of preserving French in Quebec. I do not nor do I know of anyone who has any objective/desire to turn Quebec English, that would be tragic in many ways. What irks the ROC is all the special treatment given to Quebec so that it can maintain its culture and yet all we hear about are protests, anti-english attitudes and once in a while a desire to separate. History is what it is, the English run the country and that's not changing and most believe Quebec has been given more than enough support to preserve their identity. I understand that Quebec is a relatively small population on a continent of English speakers but it feels like an never ending game from this side in terms of what can be done. So from an English-Canadian perspective, help me understand:
- What does the ROC of Canada realistically have to do make Quebec happy at this point? Is this possible? Sometimes it doesn't feel like it is.
- Is Quebec content to protect their language to the determent of their economic prosperity? It feels like the answer is yes because this is what they have been doing.
- Does Quebec honestly think it can survive as a standlone country? I don't believe it can in its current state. Or is this just a blackmail threat and everyone knows this deep down inside, including the most hardcore separatists?
Last edited by johnathanc; 06-18-2013 at 04:11 PM..
All right, so you want Ontario to have a "Charter of the English Language"?
Does part of the deal include three French-language universities, 8 French-language colleges and 18 French-language hospitals, or at least these things in relatively comparable numbers?
Does part of the deal include three French-language universities, 8 French-language colleges and 18 French-language hospitals, or at least these things in relatively comparable numbers?
Did the anglo community start these things on their own in Quebec or were they founded by French Canadians on their behalf? As an Ontario taxpayer, I would have no problem paying for more French institutions in Ontario.
Did the anglo community start these things on their own in Quebec or were they founded by French Canadians on their behalf? As an Ontario taxpayer, I would have no problem paying for more French institutions in Ontario.
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All hospitals and universities in Quebec have been publicly-funded institutions since the 1950s or 1960s. All of the CEGEPs were built by the Quebec government started in the 1960s, and the province is building a one billion dollar English superhospital to be run by McGill in Montreal at the moment.
Ontario francophones did build institutions as well but contrary to what happened in Quebec with anglo institutions historically the French stuff in Ontario was not given as much freedom to remain francophone.
Why do you keep harping on this? With this fallacy? McGill, Concordia and Bishop's are all English universities. Neither of them is a bilingual institution. Ottawa and Laurentian are truly bilingual and have that status. Hearst is so small it can't really be called a university.
Why do you keep harping on this? With this fallacy? McGill, Concordia and Bishop's are all English universities. Neither of them is a bilingual institution. Ottawa and Laurentian are truly bilingual and have that status. Hearst is so small it can't really be called a university.
Bishop's is small as well. What's your point? Something like 20 percent of students at McGill are francophones. There is even a French newspaper. I don't know what the statistics are for Concordia, but I believe they have French-language courses there, and, being in Montreal, most of the staff are likely bilingual.
On my initial question, how do hospitals and universities being publically-funded have anything to do with what I asked? McGill University, Dawson College, Bishop's University, Concordia University, Jewish General Hospital... all founded by the anglo community they primarily cater to. Although new institutions are overseen by the province, what is your excuse for the Franco-Ontarian community not founding the equivalent of what the Anglo-Quebecers have, themselves, in the earlier days? Would such institutions not still exist today, had they done so? Regardless of whether or not tax dollars go towards funding them today, whilst private, great amounts of money were invested by the anglophone community into these hospitals, universities and colleges. How is it unfair for them to still exist? Anglophones pay their taxes and deserve to have these services, regardless of whatever the PQ has been trying to rebrand the province as for the past 30-something years.
The English Hospitals are truly bilingual and I've even had a hard time getting service in English from some stuff members are them. The English Universities, however, are truly English despite whatever percentage of Francophones attend them because despite being able to submit papers in French and having a French newspaper, the lectures are all in English (everywhere but the law school at McGill) and so is the rest of public life. Both schools also have so many foreign and out of province students who only know how to speak English and not French that operating bilingually in an informal social setting is rare. I'd also say that the reason Anglo Quebecers founded so many institutions is that our elite were Canada's ruling social circle and defacto aristocrats, whereas Franco-Ontarians were largely poor farmers and lumberjacks who weren't going to be making any grand philanthropic donations.
All this said, I do think that the ROC's Trudeauesque attempts at official bilingualism do more for nation building than many give them credit for and are symbolically important in reinforcing the idea of a truly united Canadian state. It might not seem like it, but I think things would be significantly worse if there were no official bilingualism and that Quebec would have left in 1995 if this hadn't occurred, because it made Canada seem more like it had evolved or was evolving into a real country and made it look less like just a colonialist construct. All that said, Quebec separatism has very little to do with the ROC and what the ROC does has only a light effect, the driving forces of Quebec separatism have always been the internal power struggles between the linguistic groups actually within Quebec, as well as dynasty building for an opportunistic and greedy political class all too happy to exploit, inflame, and preserve bad situations that are of benefit to them. It's never been a conflict between English Canadians and French Canadians, it's always been Anglo-Quebecois and Franco-Quebecois to the point of a PQ government supporting greater Manitoba restrictions on French schools so as to reaffirm it's own right to limit English schooling. The separatists have never lobbied for French language rights outside Quebec's borders and in fact work against them, it's the federalists who promote them. All that said, there's aspects of Bill 101 that are good and recognize the reality of English being a globally dominant language that does need some bulwarks against it so we can keep the linguistic status quo and avoid social tension. I support some of the Bill, while finding other aspects of it excessive, and I'm quite against bringing in new legislation as that's just vindictive and clearly about trying to drive out the Anglos and make us feel unwelcome.
Does part of the deal include three French-language universities, 8 French-language colleges and 18 French-language hospitals, or at least these things in relatively comparable numbers?
If Francophone demographics were such that they could fill those institutions i'm sure they'd be built, but its pointless to build that much Franco infrastructure if there arent the numbers to merit the effort.
And do remember most of these Anglo institutions were built when the Anglo culture was thriving in Quebec, they certainly wouldnt be built in todays Quebec..
AJ you ever think that the Anglophone culture in Quebec is every bit as proud and patriotic about their culture as Francophones are of theirs, you ever think from the Anglo perspective its rather rude,insulting and intolerant to have some one come along and tell you you cant post your language anywhere it can be seen,you cant speak your language at the work place, many of the towns and streets that used to be English names have now been renamed French,all the while watching a separatist government trying its best to rid Quebec of the Anglo culture and presence entirely, along with an entire enforcement arm of the government called the OQLF (read language police) that make sure you comply with all these anti English laws right down to the minutia of saying words like Pasta.
AJ in todays day and age theres nothing even remotely similar being perpetrated on the French culture in the ROC or anywhere else in the world.
The English Hospitals are truly bilingual and I've even had a hard time getting service in English from some stuff members are them. The English Universities, however, are truly English despite whatever percentage of Francophones attend them because despite being able to submit papers in French and having a French newspaper, the lectures are all in English (everywhere but the law school at McGill) and so is the rest of public life. Both schools also have so many foreign and out of province students who only know how to speak English and not French that operating bilingually in an informal social setting is rare. I'd also say that the reason Anglo Quebecers founded so many institutions is that our elite were Canada's ruling social circle and defacto aristocrats, whereas Franco-Ontarians were largely poor farmers and lumberjacks who weren't going to be making any grand philanthropic donations.
All this said, I do think that the ROC's Trudeauesque attempts at official bilingualism do more for nation building than many give them credit for and are symbolically important in reinforcing the idea of a truly united Canadian state. It might not seem like it, but I think things would be significantly worse if there were no official bilingualism and that Quebec would have left in 1995 if this hadn't occurred, because it made Canada seem more like it had evolved or was evolving into a real country and made it look less like just a colonialist construct. All that said, Quebec separatism has very little to do with the ROC and what the ROC does has only a light effect, the driving forces of Quebec separatism have always been the internal power struggles between the linguistic groups actually within Quebec, as well as dynasty building for an opportunistic and greedy political class all too happy to exploit, inflame, and preserve bad situations that are of benefit to them. It's never been a conflict between English Canadians and French Canadians, it's always been Anglo-Quebecois and Franco-Quebecois to the point of a PQ government supporting greater Manitoba restrictions on French schools so as to reaffirm it's own right to limit English schooling. The separatists have never lobbied for French language rights outside Quebec's borders and in fact work against them, it's the federalists who promote them. All that said, there's aspects of Bill 101 that are good and recognize the reality of English being a globally dominant language that does need some bulwarks against it so we can keep the linguistic status quo and avoid social tension. I support some of the Bill, while finding other aspects of it excessive, and I'm quite against bringing in new legislation as that's just vindictive and clearly about trying to drive out the Anglos and make us feel unwelcome.
Both accurate and eloquently put. And less bristling than my stuff. Let's hope it goes over better and at least some people "get the point".
If Francophone demographics were such that they could fill those institutions i'm sure they'd be built, but its pointless to build that much Franco infrastructure if there arent the numbers to merit the effort.
And do remember most of these Anglo institutions were built when the Anglo culture was thriving in Quebec, they certainly wouldnt be built in todays Quebec..
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As BIMBAM mentioned, socio-economically dominant minorities tend to be more likely to build lavish institutions for themselves than socio-economically dominated ones.
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