How is Montreal more European than other N.A. cities? (house, housing)

[jambo101]

Now heres me calling bugs les bibitte or les mouche all this time ,odd nobody at work ever corrected me on this point

[QuebecOpec]

Originally Posted by 2ner

But nowadays, Montrealers seem to speak better French, if "better" means more aligned with European French. Maybe it's the influence of the educational system, the media, or all the international Francophone newcomers. Am I wrong? Is Quebec (or Montreal) French becoming more European?

Yes, I think international francophone newcomers play a positive role. Also, I met some (allophone) migrants in Montréal who spoke clear French like if it was taught in France. In general, those who come knowing French, have learnt metropolitan French.

He for example speaks relatively clear French without a strong accent, he's from Gatineau:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSPAEtqsaaI

Originally Posted by begratto

I wouldn't say "European", but for sure kids generally have a much better vocabulary and pronounce more clearly now compared to when I went to school in the 1980's.

When we travel, my kids have no communications issues whatsoever when talking to European francophone children.

cross-pollinisation of language with France due to the Internet (Québec kids will watch French Youtubers and vice-versa, for example).

I totally agree. Youtube has helped to make Québécois French better.
In the past, Québécois youth talked to each other with their sometimes horrible accents and no one else remarked it, as everyone easily understood it, as it was common.
Now thanks to Youtube, Québécois get feedback for their accents and way of speaking and those who want to make it big (in French, on youtube), will always have France as their largest "fanbase", so they must cater to them and improve their French. Internet has brought isolated Québec to the rest of the francophone world and helped to improve the quality of French.

That being said, while the clarity of French improved,
the orthography, grammar and sophisticated répertoire of vocabulary is disastrous/below the quality of France.
Québécois have horrible results in the subject French at French schools. Université de Montréal constantly complains about the low quality of written French of their students. A shockingly high proportion of students cannot properly write French as it is required for university.

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Quebec accent and many of the language quirks are still alive and well, but things have nonetheless moved considerably more in the direction of more standard international French.

I'd add another factor which is schoolmates and friends from other Francophonie countries that my kids have and that influence how they speak French.

That's good. Moreover, we should have television like ARTE (from France/Germany) available in Québec, so that TV can also help improve French quality, too.

Originally Posted by 2ner

I really do love la francophonie nord-américaine. It is sad that Louisianans have (mostly) lost it.

Yes, it's sad and forever to be regretted. Louisiana is a shocking example why we must pay attention to Montréal and secure French, so that it won't become a second Louisiana.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though one major example of a Québécisme that can be said to have been adopted by the international Francophonie would be "courriel" for email.

What has been really strange, once in Europe I was at a self-service and there were different language options to choose from, and one of them was Français and Français canadien, and Spanish and English, etc. but Spanish was not further divided itno "Latin american Spanish and european spanish", just "Spanish", same to English, while French had an additional option for French Canadian. That really surprised me, that little Québec got such an extra service.

[2ner]

Originally Posted by QuebecOpec

What has been really strange, once in Europe I was at a self-service and there were different language options to choose from, and one of them was Français and Français canadien, and Spanish and English, etc. but Spanish was not further divided itno "Latin american Spanish and european spanish", just "Spanish", same to English, while French had an additional option for French Canadian. That really surprised me, that little Québec got such an extra service.

I was watching a French documentary on the Duplessis orphans... most of whom were deprived of an education and spoke very colloquial *Canuck* French. When they spoke, the documentary producers put Standard French (SF) sub-titles in. When the one educated orphan spoke, they didn't (need to) put in the sub-titles. Maybe European Francophones perceive Quebeckers as needing their own self-service language option based on movies, tv shows, etc. that they have seen from Quebec...

As a side note, when they tried to revive French in Louisiana through the schools, they used SF, which was in many parts incomprehensible to Cajun French (CF) speakers. Kids would learn Comment allez-vous? at school, try it at home, and grandma would respond, Je talle bien. Critics say this emphasis on SF helped bring down CF.

[2ner]

Originally Posted by jambo101

Now heres me calling bugs les bibitte or les mouche all this time ,odd nobody at work ever corrected me on this point

We used bibittes for any little bug in Maine... a good general purpose term.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by 2ner

We used bibittes for any little bug in Maine... a good general purpose term.

Same in Quebec, actually. And Jambo, a mouche is a fly, not a mosquito.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 2ner

I was watching a French documentary on the Duplessis orphans... most of whom were deprived of an education and spoke very colloquial *Canuck* French. When they spoke, the documentary producers put Standard French (SF) sub-titles in. When the one educated orphan spoke, they didn't (need to) put in the sub-titles. Maybe European Francophones perceive Quebeckers as needing their own self-service language option based on movies, tv shows, etc. that they have seen from Quebec...

.

Some DVDs give you the choice between "French" and "Quebec French". The difference between them is often barely perceptible.

Some stuff has famously been dubbed into colloquial Quebec French on purpose like Slap Shot, the Flintstones or the Simpsons, but generally speaking there is no reason to do that for Avatar or Harry Potter.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by begratto

Same in Quebec, actually. And Jambo, a mouche is a fly, not a mosquito.

I remember former PM Brian Mulroney answered a question in French from reporters at Parliament by saying: "il y a des bibittes dans le système".

All of the francophone reporters laughed and the anglophone reporters immediately asked him if he could repeat it in English.

His response: "Of course, my pleasure. I said that there were bibittes in the système".

[CXT2000]

Been busy as hell lately, but would like to quickly add that just like in Europe, the attractiveness of Socialism/communism is more common in Quebec than in the rest of North America. It makes sense since Quebec has always had that anarchism/activism embedded in society for a long time. This viewpoint is also very common with young students who've only read a few pages of The Communist Manifesto or uneducated people who don't understand how anything works. Nonetheless, this would be considered more "European" than N.A.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by djesus007

Been busy as hell lately, but would like to quickly add that just like in Europe, the attractiveness of Socialism/communism is more common in Quebec than in the rest of North America. It makes sense since Quebec has always had that anarchism/activism embedded in society for a long time. This viewpoint is also very common with young students who've only read a few pages of The Communist Manifesto or uneducated people who don't understand how anything works. Nonetheless, this would be considered more "European" than N.A.

I think this is very true. On urban forums people (especially North Americans) tend to argue a lot over European characteristics as if it's a highly desirable prize that everyone wants for their city.


But "being like Europe" doesn't always have positive repercussions.

[yofie]

Besides the fact that French is spoken in Montreal (and even more so in the rest of Quebec) more than in other parts of North America, and besides the fact that Montreal and Quebec are "European" on a number of lifestyle factors more than in the rest of North America, there are some other things which make Montreal more "European" than the rest of the continent. This is centred on architecture and housing density.

The historic, colonial architecture found in Quebec (including Montreal) is French colonial - as opposed to British/Georgian colonial in the eastern United States - for obvious reasons. Click here for an example.

The duplexes, triplexes, etc. from Victorian/Edwardian times (with outside staircases) that have historically been working class housing in Montreal, Quebec City, etc. were inspired by British row housing and aren't found in the same way in other North American cities. Click here for an example.

Much of the housing in older wealthier neighbourhoods in Montreal, such as those in Westmount or Outremont, really don't look out of place in London and other British cities and aren't found nearly as much (if at all) in other North American cities. Click here for an example.

Also, the urban density of Montreal is much greater than most other North American cities (possibly with the exception of New York City) and is in line with many European cities. Namely, the houses and other dwellings and buildings are closer together in Montreal than in many other North American cities (though in suburbs in Ontario - including the Toronto area - one detached house is often less separated from the next one than in suburbs in Quebec).