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How dare folks with names like that think they may be entitled to equality.
That was not the point being made here. The observation was made in response to a post which drew a parallel between the situation with Spanish speakers in the U.S. (where there is a perception on the part of some people that they are imposing their language on Anglo-Americans), and the recent court case in Quebec.
In the case of Spanish speakers, they would be speakers of Language 1 (Spanish), moving to a country that is predominantly language 2 (English), and allegedly wanting to imposing their language, which is Language 1 (Spanish).
In Quebec, there are multiple languages at play. People who speak Language 1 (Vietnamese, Mandarin, Arabic, Urdu, etc.) move to a place that is predominantly Language 2 (French), yet seek to use a third language, Language 3 (English).
So it’s not the same as with Hispanics in the U.S., some of whom I guess could be said to want to stay just the way they are linguistically while living in their new country.
In Quebec, people seem to be willing to make a change, just not one that is consistent with the linguistic environment in the Canadian province they have chosen to settle in.
It is almost as if a Québécois who speaks only French moved to Texas, decided to learn Spanish and then expected all of the Anglo-Americans there to speak to him in Spanish as he went about his daily business.
If you are pronouncing them properly, they are not supposed to sound the same.
Anyway, I am glad that you are in love with your English language. Love is a wonderful thing. One of things it makes us do is overlook the less pretty stuff and accentuate the positive - and even make some up.
Why are you being cute? I haven't smarted off to you.
I never said I love English. I said it is far more expressive. Jesus F. Christ...
Why are you being cute? I haven't smarted off to you.
I never said I love English. I said it is far more expressive. Jesus F. Christ...
Sorry man. Guess I misread what you were saying.
Since the court ruling, a lot of the forums that I go on are filled with anglo-supremacist, English-is-magic, English-was-good-enough-for-Jesus-Christ, English-or-die, English-just-smells-better types...
The French vs. English issue in Quebec is pretty complex and even all of us sitting around a table and debating would not bring us any closer to harmony.
But I just wanted to mention 2 things which really annoyed when I was living in the great city of Montreal :
- the amount of people who'd been living in Montreal for a few years or even decades and were not able to say a complete sentence in French. I know it's officially a bilingual city but still. And I can't get why allophone immigrants would choose English over French since it's mostly a French-speaking city and province. It's like those people chose Quebec because it was easier and took less time for them to immigrate there, but they couldn't care less about the history and culture of the province. To me, immigrating to Quebec and not learning French = being totally ungrateful.
- on the other end, I quickly grew tired of Quebecois being so proud of their culture that there are almost no Canadian flags in Quebec compared to Quebec flags or the number of Canadian flags in Ontario for example. Besides, it seemed to me that there was a significantly lower rate of bilingual signs such as road signs in Montreal compared to a city like Toronto.
My point is that Francophones being outnumbered by Anglophones in the USA & Canada and Anglophones+allophones being outnumbered by Francophones in Montreal (less and less though) make all of them play the exact same childish game which name seems to be "You want me to do it your way because you're stronger ? Well my friend, I'll do the exact opposite".
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But I just wanted to mention 2 things which really annoyed when I was living in the great city of Montreal :
- the amount of people who'd been living in Montreal for a few years or even decades and were not able to say a complete sentence in French. I know it's officially a bilingual city but still. And I can't get why allophone immigrants would choose English over French since it's mostly a French-speaking city and province. It's like those people chose Quebec because it was easier and took less time for them to immigrate there, but they couldn't care less about the history and culture of the province. To me, immigrating to Quebec and not learning French = being totally ungrateful.
- on the other end, I quickly grew tired of Quebecois being so proud of their culture that there are almost no Canadian flags in Quebec compared to Quebec flags or the number of Canadian flags in Ontario for example. Besides, it seemed to me that there was a significantly lower rate of bilingual signs such as road signs in Montreal compared to a city like Toronto.
Not trying to be provocative here, but did you ever consider there might be a cause-and-effect linkage between number 1 and number 2 here?
Not trying to be provocative here, but did you ever consider there might be a cause-and-effect linkage between number 1 and number 2 here?
Thanks for opening my eyes
I was just giving my 2 cents regarding the OP's question.
I don't think there is any serious "looking down" but there is definately a cultural rivalry, language being just one aspect of the problem. I gave one example from each side as I don't want to take sides. Both behaviours are silly and don't help Montreal, which is too bad.
The French vs. English issue in Quebec is pretty complex and even all of us sitting around a table and debating would not bring us any closer to harmony.
My point is that Francophones being outnumbered by Anglophones in the USA & Canada and Anglophones+allophones being outnumbered by Francophones in Montreal (less and less though) make all of them play the exact same childish game which name seems to be "You want me to do it your way because you're stronger ? Well my friend, I'll do the exact opposite".
And to further complicate matters, , I know a town, non-Anglo, non-Francophone, who deliberately, as the result of the Francophone-Anglo competition, put up a sign saying, Wilkommen.
What you say is mostly true. But there's not that much love lost between non-Anglos for the English around here either.
What you say is mostly true. But there's not that much love lost between non-Anglos for the English around here either.
I often hear this from people, but how much of this still remains after a few generations in Canada?
I am for the most part a descendant of people who came to this country from France about 400 years ago, but there is one segment of my family tree that is of “another” origin from a far away land but which has progressively integrated with the Canadian francophone community to the point where they are today totally indistinguishable from the descendants of the “old stock” colonists. I can say with certainty that there is nothing but the surname and the odd physical characteristic that distinguishes them (or should I say us, since I have some of that blood too) from other francophones. Speech is the same, attitudes are the same, cultural and social habits are exactly the same.
So my question is this. Among Manitoba’s federal parliamentarians there are people with surnames like Hoeppner and Wasylycia-Leis, and there are some with names like Smith and Tweed.
Are you telling me that there really is that much of a “cultural” difference between a Joy Smith and a Candice Hoeppner, just because Hoeppner is probably of German origin?
I just moved to Montreal and I'm having a little trouble learning french and I feel its actually a direct result of the language debate. To learn a language one has to practice speaking it in everyday situations. It doesn't matter how much theory or practice one does on their own, they HAVE to speak it in everyday situations. Unfortunately whenever I try to practice around Montreal people will almost always automatically switch to English, which makes it hard for me to practice. Also if I happen to meet someone who speaks only french, a lot of the time they don't have the patience to help me out, and I can't help but notice a little resentment in situations like that. I really want to be able to communicate in french but I haven't been presented with the most welcoming reception to the francophone world. The very fact that the debate exists closes the door to the many benefits of being a bilingual city and can make it hard for even an enthusiatic anglophone newcomer to learn french and become a fully functioning member of society. However, I have also lived in Ontario where there is a lot of resentment on their behalf towards Quebec also, so there are definately some poor states of mind across both sides of the borders. I don't count New Brunswick because there are some truly bilingual towns there where both languages are fully embraced, grand falls/grand sault is the only city in canada that officially has 2 names in both languages, and Shediac is a truly beautiful place filled with amazing people. If only people would realize the rich cultural learning opportunity that lies before them. If you take history all the way back to where the 2 languages diverged its easy to see that most of english comes mostly from french (about 70%) and a little of the germanic/scandinavian languages, so we all share some common ground anyway. we should be celebrating our current diversity, not seperating because of it. I moved to Canada from Australia around a year ago. Back home in Australia we don't have the same opportunities to learn new languages due to the fact that we're a remote island nation. I grew up without the influence of this debate so I consider myself to be an outside observer. I feel a lot of the blame has to fall on Quebec. If Quebec truly embraced its bilingualism and became more receptive to new anglophones than the french language would not die out, but in fact only propagate further. They're kicking themselves in the nuts by even creating such a petty debate about language. Language, by its very nature will always change/diverge.
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, I know a town, non-Anglo, non-Francophone, who deliberately, as the result of the Francophone-Anglo competition, put up a sign saying, Wilkommen.
