Should the Lee Circle statue be removed? (New Orleans, Jefferson: murder rate, best)

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by Desert kid

They wore Kevlar jackets and masks.

Tell me that ain't shady.

Either way, it's a start.

[annie_himself]

Well one of the contractors had his Lamborghini torched a year or two ago.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by annie_himself

Well one of the contractors had his Lamborghini torched a year or two ago.

Shows the lengths some people will go through. Honoring the Confederacy. I am sure happy one of those monuments are coming down.

[southwest88]

Originally Posted by Babe_Ruth

Southwest, Great posts in this thread..
One point of contention,.. what leads you to believe the Old South found Jews unacceptable (?)
My study of history leads me to believe, the American South (in relative terms of the Western World), was very hospitable to Jews. Charleston, Richmond VA etc.
I'd also submit that in the 1860s, the Confederacy had the most politically powerful Jew in the US (Judah Benjamin).
Related to Confederate Jewry, Richmond's Hebrew Cemetery (containing Jewish-Confederate graves) is reported as the only Jewish military cemetery outside of Israel.
(peace)

Thanks. Yep, & I thought I read somewhere that Pres. Lincoln's Cabinet also had @ least one Jew - can't find the source, though. Yah, there were Jewish communities in the South - I don't know if they're still around. Yah, surprising about CSA Benjamin - AG? I probably went too fast, & projected the Klan's antipathies back in time. Or maybe not -

But note Don't know much about the Civil War, Kenneth Davis, c1996, Perennial, on the subject:

"Appointed attorney general in the Confederate Cabinet, Benjamin was considered the most brilliant of the men surrounding Jefferson Davis. Although he married a Catholic and his child was raised as a Catholic, he was also mistrusted and hated by many in the Confederacy because he was a Jew. He would be doubly hated in the Union because he was a Confederate Jew. Some of the wartime attacks on Benjamin were virulently anti-Semitic, neither an unusual nor controversial sentiment in mid-nineteenth-century America." - p. 145

Was the US hospitable to Jews then? Maybe by comparison to most of Europe - I think FDR considered opening the borders to people trying to flee Nazi Germany - but there wasn't the political will, & he was scrambling to get the US ready for the war. (& the Great Depression was on, there were economic & workforce reasons against it.) Pity, though - think where we'd be in STEM now if we'd simply taken in all the communities that were trying desperately to get out of Europe.

[BeauCharles]

Originally Posted by southwest88

Back on point, the real issue is that Blacks (& Catholics & Hispanics & Jews & lots of other groups that the old South would presumably find unacceptable) also walk past those monuments to an era that grasped @ glory & found defeat instead.

Charleston had the largest Jewish population in the United States at the time and many were heavily invested in slavery and the Confederacy. Judah P. Benjamin was Secretary of State of the CSA. Estimates range up to 10,000 Jews in the Confederate Army including a fair number as officers (General Abraham Myers for one).

There were a large number of Hispanics/Mexicans in Texas (Col. Santos Benavides, Col. Ambrosio Gonzales and Col. Leonidas Martin as officers) plus Cubans and Spanish Floridians who fought for the CSA. There was even Loreta Janeta Velaquez (Cuban-American) who disguised herself as a man to fight for them. They were of course predominantly Catholic as were most of the people of New Orleans and Southern Louisiana.

Basically, don't assume those who fought for and/or supported the Confederacy were all the same.

[norb123]

I get the history and all of the reasons it's not about slavery, but can you put yourself in a black person's shoes and come up with any reason why these statues should stay? This is the majority of our city. Our city is great because of the people here. Take them down and let it go. I'm not liberal or black, but I don't understand the fuss. There are plenty of Southern cities where this will never happen, I've lived in a few. You can still get your Confederate history there. I've never seen New Orleans as that type of city anyhow.

[southwest88]

Originally Posted by BeauCharles

Charleston had the largest Jewish population in the United States at the time and many were heavily invested in slavery and the Confederacy. Judah P. Benjamin was Secretary of State of the CSA. Estimates range up to 10,000 Jews in the Confederate Army including a fair number as officers (General Abraham Myers for one).

There were a large number of Hispanics/Mexicans in Texas (Col. Santos Benavides, Col. Ambrosio Gonzales and Col. Leonidas Martin as officers) plus Cubans and Spanish Floridians who fought for the CSA. There was even Loreta Janeta Velaquez (Cuban-American) who disguised herself as a man to fight for them. They were of course predominantly Catholic as were most of the people of New Orleans and Southern Louisiana.

Basically, don't assume those who fought for and/or supported the Confederacy were all the same.

Good catch. I stopped too soon, Benjamin was the AG in the CSA Cabinet for a time, then to Sect. of State. Yes, I've never looked closely @ the various ethnicities' & nationalities' participation in the CSA. I need to revisit that & read some more. Yah, the Hispanic question is interesting - I thought Spain especially offered sanctuary to slaves, in FL beginning in 1623. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaver...panish_Florida)
Spain ended slavery formally throughout its empire in Oct. 1820.

By the old South, I'm particularly referring to plantation society, which dominated all the political, government, law enforcement, military, educational, newspaper, university & church institutions in the South & thus in the CSA. I think their control was too complete - TMK, people with different ideas - whether crop diversification, setting up banking, manufacturing, improving general educational levels, public infrastructure (canals, roads, railroads, shipping) - simply weren't welcome.

The South was very dependent on the North for food for the slaves, financing & insurance, manufactured goods, cannon, railroad engines & cars, the mechanical arts in general. I think there were some very bright people & companies in the CSA - the iron & steelworks outfit that did most of the armor cladding for the ironclads - Tredegar? - for instance. But they were limited by having to manufacture a lot of their own inputs, instead of being able to order feedstock @ good quality @ reasonable rates, & have the material delivered.

By the time the war gets truly under way, & everyone realizes it's going to be a long grinding war of attrition, it's much too late to be trying to build the industrial infrastructure & combines & vertical integration needed to produce everything that was needed, from uniforms to field rations to gunpowder, cannon, rails, ships of all kinds, & on & on. Then there was transporting men & horses & supplies, warehousing surplus against need - the war for the CSA was an endless logistical nightmare.

[Babe_Ruth]

Originally Posted by norb123

but I don't understand the fuss..

Norb, I think this article does a good job explaining the perilous significance of removing a culture's symbols..

https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/b...ave-no-future/

peace ~

[Southern man]

Originally Posted by Babe_Ruth

Norb, I think this article does a good job explaining the perilous significance of removing a culture's symbols..

https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/b...ave-no-future/

peace ~

Thanks for the link.

[rburnett]

This is the inscription on the Liberty Place monument that was removed.