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I've seen shows on this, but I'll share here. It's my understanding that many ethnic neighborhoods back in the old days in NYC were actually ghettos, East New York and Brownsville being two of them, even when the population was mainly Jewish and/or Italian. People seem to forget that the immigrants that came here did so because they were poor and looking for opportunities, so the notion that some areas suddenly went down hill because Blacks or Hispanics came in isn't always true. There are documentaries on this. I think the History Channel may have something on it. I definitely recall watching documentaries on parts of the South Bronx, and they too weren't all so great. You had areas that suffered from extreme poverty way before there were ethnic shifts or any burning down of neighborhoods. Of course this isn't true for all areas, but certainly true for parts. They were true ghettos not just because of the poverty, but overcrowded living conditions as well.
I just found this book online and it should help you.
Brownsville, Brooklyn: Blacks, Jews, and the Changing Face of the Ghetto (Historical Studies of Urban America)
I think it delves into the same idea I was talking about above.
Last edited by pierrepont7731; 12-28-2016 at 10:56 AM..
I've seen shows on this, but I'll share here. It's my understanding that many ethnic neighborhoods back in the old days in NYC were actually ghettos, East New York and Brownsville being two of them, even when the population was mainly Jewish and/or Italian. People seem to forget that the immigrants that came here did so because they were poor and looking for opportunities, so the notion that some areas suddenly went down hill because Blacks or Hispanics came in isn't always true. There are documentaries on this. I think the History Channel may have something on it. I definitely recall watching documentaries on parts of the South Bronx, and they too weren't all so great. You had areas that suffered from extreme poverty way before there were ethnic shifts or any burning down of neighborhoods. Of course this isn't true for all areas, but certainly true for parts. They were true ghettos not just because of the poverty, but overcrowded living conditions as well.
I just found this book online and it should help you.
Brownsville, Brooklyn: Blacks, Jews, and the Changing Face of the Ghetto (Historical Studies of Urban America)
I think it delves into the same idea I was talking about above.
Poverty was probanly similar, but what about crime rate?
Poverty was probanly similar, but what about crime rate?
Not sure about either, but when I went to grade school back in the 80s on the bushwick/ridgewood border I remember the principal making a speech one time about how the neighborhood changed. I forgot what the entire speech was about, but he said that back when he first started at the school (guessing 50s-60s) he always appreciated seeing how hard people worked to keep the area clean. I remember him talking about people regularly scrubbing down the stoops on the multifamily row houses which I've never witnessed in my life. In fact when I was growing up in 80s/90s there was an abundance of dog crap on the sidewalks so much so that stepping on dog crap was a regular occurance. Not that dog crap in itself makes an area bad, but it seems like in the bad areas dog crap especially from pit bulls are in abundance.
Last edited by bumblebyz; 12-28-2016 at 01:36 PM..
Poverty was probanly similar, but what about crime rate?
I'm not sure you can compare to be honest. Given that both areas suffered high poverty, crime was definitely an issue even when those areas were Jewish and/or Italian. For starters you had the Jewish and the Italian mafia.
So as you can see historically these areas have always been less desirable for a number of reasons, and it certainly wasn't just because Blacks and Hispanics moved in.
I've seen shows on this, but I'll share here. It's my understanding that many ethnic neighborhoods back in the old days in NYC were actually ghettos, East New York and Brownsville being two of them, even when the population was mainly Jewish and/or Italian. People seem to forget that the immigrants that came here did so because they were poor and looking for opportunities, so the notion that some areas suddenly went down hill because Blacks or Hispanics came in isn't always true. There are documentaries on this. I think the History Channel may have something on it. I definitely recall watching documentaries on parts of the South Bronx, and they too weren't all so great. You had areas that suffered from extreme poverty way before there were ethnic shifts or any burning down of neighborhoods. Of course this isn't true for all areas, but certainly true for parts. They were true ghettos not just because of the poverty, but overcrowded living conditions as well.
I just found this book online and it should help you.
Brownsville, Brooklyn: Blacks, Jews, and the Changing Face of the Ghetto (Historical Studies of Urban America)
I think it delves into the same idea I was talking about above.
Thank you the rest of the board just spews the regular nonsense.
There was even a map i seen of areas that were well off. Brownstone brooklyn (Brooklyn Heights, Clinton Hill, parts of BedStuy/Bushwick) had the more affluent people, East New York/brownsville area was more lower level working class. You can tell the difference by the housing stock and the details that went into brownstone construction compared to the smaller homes in ENY.
If people really wanted to know "why" ENY/Brownsville became a bad section all the information is accessible. White flight of the 50's/60s. Drug infiltration in 70s, 80s and then the War on Drugs in the late 80's and 90s. Poverty and systematic racism.
People act like majority affluent black neighborhoods aren't possible. There was even a black wall street but of course that was burned down by the KKK in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
If these neighborhoods were really that dangerous, gentrification wouldn't exist today.
Thank you the rest of the board just spews the regular nonsense.
There was even a map i seen of areas that were well off. Brownstone brooklyn (Brooklyn Heights, Clinton Hill, parts of BedStuy/Bushwick) had the more affluent people, East New York/brownsville area was more lower level working class. You can tell the difference by the housing stock and the details that went into brownstone construction compared to the smaller homes in ENY.
If people really wanted to know "why" ENY/Brownsville became a bad section all the information is accessible. White flight of the 50's/60s. Drug infiltration in 70s, 80s and then the War on Drugs in the late 80's and 90s. Poverty and systematic racism.
Correct. I think the OP should understand that the main idea with both areas is that they historically have been slums/ghettos that were far out (out of sight out of mind ). I suppose when economic times improved there was an improvement in these areas, as the link I mentioned talks about thriving small businesses, and some former residents in the comments section remembered having good times there, but they were never home to the affluent by any means. Whites were fleeing these areas well before any ethnic concerns came about because it was never a place that people with means wanted to settle. As soon as you could do better, you generally got out. I think some of the good memories stems from having neighborhoods with a strong ethnic presence, so everyone knew each other. There was less of a sense of the "unknown" if you will. This seemed to be true even of areas of the South Bronx where ethnic whites lived. In the documentaries that I've watched, they talked about it being poor but still having fond memories. The small things were valued. That was precisely why the South Bronx changed so quickly because "the unknown" moved in which led to rapid white flight. The Jews for example tried on several occasions to recreate strong Jewish neighborhoods in parts of the Bronx, but many didn't have the financial means to self-segregate at that point, which led to more white flight. Similar situation with these areas of Brooklyn.
Last edited by pierrepont7731; 12-28-2016 at 02:04 PM..
I've seen shows on this, but I'll share here. It's my understanding that many ethnic neighborhoods back in the old days in NYC were actually ghettos, East New York and Brownsville being two of them, even when the population was mainly Jewish and/or Italian. People seem to forget that the immigrants that came here did so because they were poor and looking for opportunities, so the notion that some areas suddenly went down hill because Blacks or Hispanics came in isn't always true. There are documentaries on this. I think the History Channel may have something on it. I definitely recall watching documentaries on parts of the South Bronx, and they too weren't all so great. You had areas that suffered from extreme poverty way before there were ethnic shifts or any burning down of neighborhoods. Of course this isn't true for all areas, but certainly true for parts. They were true ghettos not just because of the poverty, but overcrowded living conditions as well.
I just found this book online and it should help you.
Brownsville, Brooklyn: Blacks, Jews, and the Changing Face of the Ghetto (Historical Studies of Urban America)
I think it delves into the same idea I was talking about above.
In Brownsville a three bedroom apartment was a three family apartment. People seem to not know that the Jews arriving from post WW2 Europe were Socialists. So they were extremely communal. In the early 50's the flow of Jews had dwindled and the ones who were there left within a decade to neighborhoods where one family could have their own apartments. That area was pretty much Flatbush (when it didn't have all these small names it has now). By the late 50's most Jews were gone as they had saved enough money to do so. These were the secular Jews who left. As the Jews left, so did the Italians( The Orthodox Jews who are now in Crown Heights, came mainly from the communist countries that were mostly untouched by the Nazis and arrived due to Russian anti-Jew laws). They were replaced by Blacks from the deep south and Puerto Ricans.
In Brownsville a three bedroom apartment was a three family apartment. People seem to not know that the Jews arriving from post WW2 Europe were Socialists. So they were extremely communal. In the early 50's the flow of Jews had dwindled and the ones who were there left within a decade to neighborhoods where one family could have their own apartments. That area was pretty much Flatbush (when it didn't have all these small names it has now). By the late 50's most Jews were gone as they had saved enough money to do so. These were the secular Jews who left. As the Jews left, so did the Italians( The Orthodox Jews who are now in Crown Heights, came mainly from the communist countries that were mostly untouched by the Nazis and arrived due to Russian anti-Jew laws). They were replaced by Blacks from the deep south and Puerto Ricans.
Yes, and those Jews and Italians were bound to move up the social ladder at some point. Naturally they would leave Brownsville and move on to better pastures. This actually can apply to what we see now in NYC, with ethnic whites leaving and moving out to the suburbs.
Thank you the rest of the board just spews the regular nonsense.
There was even a map i seen of areas that were well off. Brownstone brooklyn (Brooklyn Heights, Clinton Hill, parts of BedStuy/Bushwick) had the more affluent people, East New York/brownsville area was more lower level working class. You can tell the difference by the housing stock and the details that went into brownstone construction compared to the smaller homes in ENY.
If people really wanted to know "why" ENY/Brownsville became a bad section all the information is accessible. White flight of the 50's/60s. Drug infiltration in 70s, 80s and then the War on Drugs in the late 80's and 90s. Poverty and systematic racism.
People act like majority affluent black neighborhoods aren't possible. There was even a black wall street but of course that was burned down by the KKK in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
If these neighborhoods were really that dangerous, gentrification wouldn't exist today.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it wasn't White flight. It's called the Ripple Effect which is now done by each generation. Originally it was the overflow Jewish residents from Manhattan’s Lower East Side and this is what attracted Jewish immigrants to it. Back then it was simply too many people in too small of an area. By their standards it wasn't a poverty stricken neighborhood. It was numerous steps from what they left in Europe.
People saved enough money and moved to other neighborhoods within the same generation.
One can go to Zion Triangle and read the list of names on the memorial. It's a list of people who died during WW1 and if one takes the time to read it there they will find a list of Jewish names.
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). I suppose when economic times improved there was an improvement in these areas, as the link I mentioned talks about thriving small businesses, and some former residents in the comments section remembered having good times there, but they were never home to the affluent by any means. Whites were fleeing these areas well before any ethnic concerns came about because it was never a place that people with means wanted to settle. As soon as you could do better, you generally got out. I think some of the good memories stems from having neighborhoods with a strong ethnic presence, so everyone knew each other. There was less of a sense of the "unknown" if you will. This seemed to be true even of areas of the South Bronx where ethnic whites lived. In the documentaries that I've watched, they talked about it being poor but still having fond memories. The small things were valued. That was precisely why the South Bronx changed so quickly because "the unknown" moved in which led to rapid white flight. The Jews for example tried on several occasions to recreate strong Jewish neighborhoods in parts of the Bronx, but many didn't have the financial means to self-segregate at that point, which led to more white flight. Similar situation with these areas of Brooklyn.
