Exactly Where Money Is Wasted On MTA projects has been identified (New York: rent, hotels)
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Subway build-out costs in NYC are far in excess of what any developer can fund internally.
Would any bank lend against the construction history of the MTA to a developer? It's a rabbit hole than no sane commercial lender would ever subject their balance sheet to.
Furthermore, why would a commercial lender issue a loan to a developer to build subway in NYC when they can just buy an MTA bond if they wanted exposure to that sort of risk profile?
Unless the developers are given control of the MTACC this won't happen.
I wouldn't imagine it be the full cost, but they would have to contribute to a fund. Some building projects already have to make improvements to subway entrances. I know the developer for One Vanderbilt next to Grand Central has to make $200 million of station improvements in exchange for the ability to build there.
It all depends on how much more money the developer can make. How many more square feet can they squeeze out of the deal and how much is it going to cost them.
I'm not upset about that. Saving money is great. You just seem to be a little all over the place with your theory. First the stations are too big, now we have too many contractors, now the mayor needs to take control....I suggest we close this thread, and you and the other poster make a list of everything you guys feel went wrong with the SAS. I think we can start off better that way.
Truth be told, if either of you lived on the Upper East Side, would you still care about how delayed it was?
I am not all over the place. You're too eager to defend the city, because for some reason pointing out these issues upsets you. And this isn't theory, a number of people in the transportation industry itself who are EXPERTS have given these reasons for the high costs (too many contractors, too big stations, lack of attention from politicians, etc.).
Do you work for the public sector in any capacity? Directly, or at something that contracts out to the city?
Of course I do. You're trying to be confrontational for no reason.
Third time I will mention my point is that corruption was not the only thing to do with the delay. Then I tried to explain how it's very common that construction projects get delayed. That's all I was saying...
But like I said, let's start fresh. You and NyWriterDude list everything that went wrong, and lets brainstorm on suggestions then. I basically called for more developer funding. They should contribute towards something thats going to help them profit for decades now.
And we're saying more developer funding does nothing to address run away costs, and we both gave some solutions towards cutting costs. Other people have as well. They weren't to your liking.
I am happy Cuomo has taken more direct involvement (he forced the MTA to stick to dates on this and on some modernization projects) and I am hoping Trump gets involved and FORCES the MTA to stick to dates and eliminate bureaucracy.
This wouldn't be the first time the feds made the MTA streamline and simplify. Anyone here remember the confusing mess the subway system was in the early 80s? AA train ran all times except nights and rush hours. B and CC run rush hours (this was just the uptown 8th Avenue line). B was local on 6th Avenue, except rush hours. Weekday services stopped at 8pm. A train to Far Rockaway did not run late nights, instead there was a LONG shuttle to Euclid Avenue serving both Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park (does it make sense to have a long shuttle when a shorter shuttle to Lefferts should have been done? This was a change they made either late 80s or early 90s).
The FTA went over the subway map and suggested operational improvements for efficiencies . The geniuses at the MTA had the R train going to 95th Street and Ditmas Blvd Astoria . Neither R terminal had a train yard. While the N went to Forest Hills and Coney Island, so both of it's terminals had train yards. So the N and R switched terminals in Queens, and the MTA made a lot of other operational changes around that time to better fit service. They again have made additional operational changes in recent years.
And yes in any industry or field, people observe what other people are doing and keep up with the trends and the technology. The MTA needs to get better at doing this. After putting CBTC on the L train, it was years before they started to do the work to install this on other lines (CBTC launches on the 7 train this year, and is now being installed on Queens Blvd, 8th, and 6th Avenue lines with the budget to place it on other lines as well).
I wouldn't imagine it be the full cost, but they would have to contribute to a fund. Some building projects already have to make improvements to subway entrances. I know the developer for One Vanderbilt next to Grand Central has to make $200 million of station improvements in exchange for the ability to build there.
It all depends on how much more money the developer can make. How many more square feet can they squeeze out of the deal and how much is it going to cost them.
GCT is a weird situation. GCT is privately owned and 1 Vanderbilt's owner would basically make improvements that GCT's owner would have to make anyhow due to the east side access project.
In order to give up the air rights over GCT, the owner of GCT sold his responsibilities under the east side access project to the owner of 1 Vanderbilt.
The improvements were not to be done by the MTA in the first place. Essentially, it's a build out of entrances/exits to improve accessibility to the Lexington line.
I am not all over the place. You're too eager to defend the city, because for some reason pointing out these issues upsets you. And this isn't theory, a number of people in the transportation industry itself who are EXPERTS have given these reasons for the high costs (too many contractors, too big stations, lack of attention from politicians, etc.).
Do you work for the public sector in any capacity? Directly, or at something that contracts out to the city?
Experts? You posted an opinion piece where the author didn't even reference his sources.
I work for private sector. I still fail to see why you think that I think the delays are ok. I never said they were.
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"The man who sleeps on the floor, can never fall out of bed." -Martin Lawrence
Experts? You posted an opinion piece where the author didn't even reference his sources.
I work for private sector. I still fail to see why you think that I think the delays are ok. I never said they were.
I happen to agree with the other posters in that you are arguing a point that is fairly obvious, which is that the construction costs for the MTA are out-of-control. I mean let's talk about figures. They are building stations that cost 1 billion dollars. That's absurd, and something needs to change. They try to go with the cheapest bidder which turns around and bites them.
I think part of the issue is the inferior materials that they use in the first place. Then they let stations fall into a state of disrepair, only to turn around and throw money at the problem, which ultimately does nothing. We have several examples of failed projects with out-of-control costs and nothing to show for it. The South Ferry station was a disaster. There are simply too many inept big wigs at the MTA. How do you spend hundreds of millions of dollars on one station and then have to re-do the station again because of an issue that the MTA and the contractor knew about before completion that wasn't addressed?
I happen to agree with the other posters in that you are arguing a point that is fairly obvious, which is that the construction costs for the MTA are out-of-control. I mean let's talk about figures. They are building stations that cost 1 billion dollars. That's absurd, and something needs to change. They try to go with the cheapest bidder which turns around and bites them.
I think part of the issue is the inferior materials that they use in the first place. Then they let stations fall into a state of disrepair, only to turn around and throw money at the problem, which ultimately does nothing. We have several examples of failed projects with out-of-control costs and nothing to show for it. The South Ferry station was a disaster. There are simply too many inept big wigs at the MTA. How do you spend hundreds of millions of dollars on one station and then have to re-do the station again because of an issue that the MTA and the contractor knew about before completion that wasn't addressed?
It's absurd based on what? How much should have this cost then? And don't answer "much less."
Nothing wrong with agreeing that it's too expensive, but then, the question is, how much should it have cost in reality?
Everybody wants to say it costs too much, but I bet most people on here can't even tell you how much does the "average" subway station cost to build.
All I simply said was, for the 4th time now - that corruption was not the only thing that caused the delays in getting it open. I never even brought up the money issue.
__________________
"The man who sleeps on the floor, can never fall out of bed." -Martin Lawrence
I happen to agree with the other posters in that you are arguing a point that is fairly obvious, which is that the construction costs for the MTA are out-of-control. I mean let's talk about figures. They are building stations that cost 1 billion dollars. That's absurd, and something needs to change. They try to go with the cheapest bidder which turns around and bites them.
I think part of the issue is the inferior materials that they use in the first place. Then they let stations fall into a state of disrepair, only to turn around and throw money at the problem, which ultimately does nothing. We have several examples of failed projects with out-of-control costs and nothing to show for it. The South Ferry station was a disaster. There are simply too many inept big wigs at the MTA. How do you spend hundreds of millions of dollars on one station and then have to re-do the station again because of an issue that the MTA and the contractor knew about before completion that wasn't addressed?
Here's a good article that I feel does a good job in explaning why everything cost so much, you guys should read it:
It's absurd based on what? How much should have this cost then? And don't answer "much less."
Nothing wrong with agreeing that it's too expensive, but then, the question is, how much should it have cost in reality?
Everybody wants to say it costs too much, but I bet most people on here can't even tell you how much does the "average" subway station cost to build.
All I simply said was, for the 4th time now - that corruption was not the only thing that caused the delays in getting it open. I never even brought up the money issue.
Quote:
The $6 billion price tag for phase two works out to $2.2 billion per kilometer. That would make it the world’s most expensive subway project on a per-kilometer basis, narrowly surpassing phase one of the Second Avenue Subway, which clocked in at “only” $1.7 billion per kilometer.
Now, building a railroad underneath an old, densely populated urban area is an inherently expensive undertaking. An old-style “cut and cover” construction method would never fly politically, and you have to deal with the fact that there’s already a whole bunch of infrastructure sitting beneath the ground.
But New York is not the only old and dense city that has built subway tunnels recently — it’s simply the most expensive. According to transit blogger Alon Levy’s compendium of international subway projects, Berlin’s U55 line cost $250 million per kilometer, Paris’s Metro Line 14 cost $230 million per kilometer, and Copenhagen’s Circle Line cost $260 million per kilometer.
At those prices, the $1 billion the MTA has in pocket would be enough to complete phase two with a few hundred million left to spare.
At the prices you just quoted, 6 billion would be more than enough to complete the entire line with money to SPARE.
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