Thoughts on Prospect Lefferts Garden (New York, Brighton: apartment, crime rates, co-op)

[askangiwa]

Just venting here to see people's thoughts/opinions:

I live in a relatively safe,working class, West Indian neighborhood in Brooklyn (Prospect Lefferts Garden) that's full of well-kept homes and good, professional people - homeowners who take pride in keeping the community clean --- (of course, there are bad elements also, but that's how it is in most neighborhoods) and yet every time I tell people where I live they say it's the ghetto or a bad neighborhood.

AUGHH! This annoys the living crap out of me - there's no ghetto in my neighborhood --- and my my experience has been very positive -- Do people say this because it's a Black neighborhood?

I'm a Brooklynite and have lived in many different Brooklyn neighborhoods (Brighton Beach, Sheepshead, Sunset, Bay Ridge, Flatbush, Fort Greene) and I feel that Prospect Lefferts is a regular Brooklyn community -- so why does it have such a bad rap?

Granted it's no Park Slope or Brooklyn Heights, but where is all this hostility coming from?

[drkman]

I think it is because a lot of people don't know where Prospect Lefferts Garden is actually at. From what I have seen of the neighborhood it is a basic Brooklyn neighborhood with some outstanding architecture when you go down certain blocks. Also because there are not a lot of amenities in the neighborhood, it does not have the same aura of a Park Slope or Fort Greene.

[NORMGLO]

You are a flashback for me - I lived on Maple Street in Prospect Lefferts Gardens about 20 years ago and loved it!! I was even on the PLGNA Board of Directors for a few years.

Back then we were fighting for a community identity and name recognition and, based on your message, you are still working on it.

The problem back then was Flatbush Ave. The stretch after you left "the circle" at Grand Army Plaza started to take a more ethnic flavor which many residents liked but wanted a blend with the boutiques and eateries that were present on the Park Slope and Prospect Hts side of town.

[bluedog2]

What you will find,especially with " real New Yorkers" who are from the burroughs, is that any neighborhood that used to be all or almost all white and has changed to predominantly black or hispanic , is labeled as a ghetto. It doesn't matter whether it is actually a solid middle or working class neighborhood or whether the crime rates are actually lower than they were 20 or 30 years ago when it had a different demographic.

[SeventhFloor]

prospect lefferts gardens still has the hood element but i honestly think its a great neighborhood. i have family in the area (st. paul's place & caton avenue).

[caco]

I went there today to see an awesome apartment at a great price (3 bedroom for $1800) and i must say that it's not a "ghetto" but it's not a "trendy" area either. It's simply in between since it's surrounded by Crown Heights and East Flatbush (realitvely ghetto areas IMO), i asked a pizza guy what he thought of the neighbourhood and he said it was great, no problems at all and good prices compared to Park Slope (nothing under $2000 for a 3 bedroom). But i'm still a bit skeptical about taking this place, more people should post!

[twist07]

When I think of Prospect Lefferts, I think of Botanical Gardens and shaded streets with lots of trees. I think it one of the best kept secrets about Brooklyn and it should stay that way 'less it be gentrified like Fort Greene or Prospect Heights. To me the neighborhood is what most of these neighborhoods were just before they became gentrified. So until the nature of development in the city changes in regards to preserving affordable housing and local businesses, I think its good on the flip side that Lefferts is seen as a "ghetto". I'm Haitian and I hate knowing that every neighborhood that is predominantley minority is seen as sketchy or undesireable because of the demographics; but you know what, so long as the people who live there know its safe who cares if the outside world doesn't. P.S. I may want to move there myself next year, Shhhhhh!

[jcoltrane]

Originally Posted by SeventhFloor

prospect lefferts gardens still has the hood element but i honestly think its a great neighborhood. i have family in the area (st. paul's place & caton avenue).

"Still"?

What does that mean? Here we go people talking about what they don't know. St. Paul's Place & Caton is NOT, I repeat NOT Prospect Lefferts Garden.

PLG is bounded by Empire Blvd., Parkside Ave. (some might say Woodruff Ave.), Ocean Ave. and Rogers Ave. Some might extend that to Nostrand Avenue though technically it only encompasses a couple of streets (Midwood and Maple, if memory serves) with the border extending to Nostrand Ave.

PLG simply used to be part of "Flatbush" until our parents in their infinite snobbish wisdom determined to distinguish our neighborhood from the bad rep that "Flatbush" had acquired back in the late 60s/early 70s. Such was Prospect Lefferts Gardens was borne.

"Prospect" for Prospect Park, "Lefferts" for the old Lefferts manor homestead (which used to reside in the vicinity of Flatbush and Maple, but was moved inside Prospect Park, just past Empire Blvd.) and "Gardens" for the Botanic. Us kids always thought it was a dumb name and never used it!

@Caco

PLG is NOT a Ghetto and never has been!

If you think East Flatbush to be a "ghetto" then you need to expand your life experience.

Most of Crown Heights is not a "ghetto" either.

Your perception is precisely what the OP finds perturbing. Simply because YOU and those like you may find the neighborhood uncomfortable and/or you might be down right fearful---doesn't mean the place is a "ghetto". OMG! There aren't any white people, ahhhhhh!!!!! "Ghetto"!

The fact is there are white people. White families (leftovers if you will) who have lived there for decades. Some live there by choice, others out of necessity, they keep a VERY low profile. They can be mostly observed during rush hours, heading to and from the subway. They do not frequent the neighborhood shops, stores or restaurants.

The homes of PLG are majorly inhabited by upper middle class blacks, African-Americans and West Indian (mostly Trinidadians). These are old line bourgeois families, doctors, dentists, lawyers, judges, high level city employees, etc. They have lived there for decades. Unfortunately, they are mostly older people, either dying off or cashing in.

Also, unfortunately, their children have forsaken the hood for old line suburbs like Montclair; or McMansion land in NJ; or have migrated en masse to the black nirvana, Atlanta. Though a few have been passed down. Generally, homes become available to the open market upon death.

Most of these bourgeois you will not find frequenting most of the stores, shops nor restaurants of the neighborhood.

There are very few apartment buildings in the neighborhood, and most of those went co-op years ago.

The, some might say unfortunate, exception(s) is the wall of apartment buildings lining Ocean Avenue btw. Empire and Parkside, most of which did not go co-op. There's also one side of Lincoln Road btw. Flatbush/Washington Aves. and Bedford Ave., as well as half of Lefferts Ave. each block has large apartment buildings which for the most part did not go co-op. There are also some lesser buildings on Winthop St. and Parkside Ave. btw. Flatbush and Bedford.

Most of the street traffic on the main drag, Flatbush Avenue emanates from these buildings, and is substantial. This "traffic" obfuscates the true nature of the neighborhood. There is some slight evidence of "Transplant" gentrification, but to date is not overwhelming. Considering the apartment dwelling population the neighborhood is overwhelmingly Carribean. Predominantly Haitian, but with a full Carribean mix. Few Hispanics though.

You all should be ashamed.

Here is a link to a map of "Victorian" Brooklyn/Flatbush, but is a very good color coded map highlighting the original developments.

MAP
http://home.att.net/~ebasics/maps.html



@SeventhFloor

The area of St. Paul's and Caton, is color coded "violet" and is/was known and developed as "Caton Park". It was an area of incredible victorian homes which were torn down post war and replaced with the apartment buildings I believe you are familiar. The dense nature of the buildings, along with the socioeconomics of the inhabitants, gives the area quite a "hood" feeling---which is absent in Prospect Lefferts Garden.

Just for the threads info, Lincoln Rd. is a somewhat schizo block, with one side a wall of ex-luxury apartment buildings, and the other side a line of detached wood frame victorian style homes. Both sides being quite at odds with each other.

The reason for this is that the whole of Flatbush was developed with Victorian detached frame homes for the upper middle class and wealthy of the era. Fully 75% or better of this housing stock has been destroyed, generally during the post war years or shortly prior to. The side of the Lincoln Road block is the only remaining example of the homes of the Victorian era development of Flatbush in the immediate vicinity. Why those homes survive to this day, I have yet to discover.

Anyone touring the PLG neighborhood will find a few additional isolated examples, along Bedford Avenue, from Fenimore Street to Linden Blvd. You'll also find a few on Fenimore Street btw. Flatbush and Bedford, near the Bedford Avenue corner. Also, on Fenimore Street btw. Bedford Ave. and Rogers, there is an entire "side" which also has survived and is in relatively good shape.

These homes and particularly the "sides" of Lincoln and Fenimore appear out of place amid the Brownstones; but, in reality it is these homes which were the original and predominate housing stock. The Brownstones and apartment buildings following a few decades later. Just a way to get a glimpse of old Brooklyn.

As one can imagine, from the color coded map, the Victorian Flatbush was originally 4 or 5 times as large as what survives in the neighborhoods of , Prospect Park South, Beverly Square, and Ditmas Park.

Some quick pics/postcards of Victorian Flatbush
http://home.att.net/~ebasics/Victorianflatbush.html

Source of historical photos by neighborhood
NYPL Digital Gallery | Browse Source Titles


Anyone interested in some DEEP history of Flatbush and the development of Victorian Flatbush, see the below online book. (On page 15 there is a picture of Lincoln Road, showing what appears to be the "homes" (in their original form) on one "side" of the street, and the other side empty.

The Realm of Light and Air: Flatbush of Today
(Note: "Today" is the turn-of-the-century)
Flatbush of today - Google Books

[vitalove]

^^
Excellent post jcoltrane.

I had the opportunity to discover this neighborhood while doing a tour of Brooklyn with a relative. It was our own personal tour as we visited Prospect Park and checked out a few of the neighborhoods that surround the park. The stretches of blocks that we saw were beautiful and very quiet and family friendly. It seemed that all the neighbors spoke to each other and got along. I was very impressed. If I were to live in BK, it would be a neighborhood that I would live in.

[SeventhFloor]

i said i had family in the area....i didnt say they lived in prospect lefferts gardens....i consider st pauls place and caton avenue area prospect park south, if anything.

and "still has the hood element" means that the neighborhood is no stranger to violent crime. in my previous post, i still said it was a great neighborhood in my opinion. but that part of brooklyn is the part of brooklyn i am most familiar with, and sorry but i have seen and heard too many things go down, especially along that strip of flatbush avenue, to sway my opinion of crime in the area.