Do you consider Northern Dutchess County, NY to be part of upstate New York? (Buffalo: how much, new home)
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^ I agree with ABQConvict about Westchester being part of the Lower Hudson Valley. But I am a geography nut, not sure what most other New Yorkers think.
^^ But I do understand what 987ABC is saying but maybe a reason why people say Long Island (instead of say Suffolk) is because Long Island has precise boundaries, you are either on Long Island or your not. This is also true of New York City/ the 5 boroughs. You are either in the city or you are not.
In contrast, while Westchester has exact boundaries, most outside people do not know where they are actually. And unlike Long Island or NYC, Westchester is in a less defined region. The name Hudson Valley is well known but where exactly is it and where does it begin or end? People outside the region may not know.
So maybe people going to Westchester are more likely to say the name of the city/town in they are going to then the county name or the region.
So maybe people going to Westchester are more likely to say the name of the city/town in they are going to then the county name or the region.
Maybe, but everyone knows what Westchester is (i.e. the first county north of NYC proper), if not its exact boundaries.
On the other hand, I have talked to many people from Manhattan and the Bronx who claim to have never heard of Mount Vernon or New Rochelle, both of which actually sit right on the border of NYC.
I met a woman in college from Manhattan and told her I had just moved from Mount Vernon, and she said "Where's that?". I replied that it is right next to Yonkers and she said, "Oh, New Jersey." This was a rich girl from a good school, no less. People in NYC can have a really poor sense of local geography. I thinks it is myopia rather than simply poor education.
Dutchess County is downstate. As well as any county on the south side of the catskills or southeast of Broome/Delaware counties since this is where the fees on items are higher, and they get more pieces of bread to be buttered! Look at the demographics, they get funding and better roads and even have people who can "sponsor" the roads down there. Broome/Delaware is southeast Upstate, the counties east of there in the Catskills are the border. Every politician and geography expert knows this.
Growing up in NYC, anything north of the Bronx was upstate. Now that I live in Westchester, anything north of White Plains feels upstate-ish. Anything north of Westchester (LoHUD proper) is pretty much upstate.
Why? No lights on highways, fewer towns with sidewalks, complete opposite of urban until you get to super small Poughkeepsie (east of the river), super small Newburgh and Kingston (west of the river), and then Albany.
Felt like I needed to add two cents from someone who does not live every day in NY... Upstate or Down.
Having family in the Poughkeepsie area of the Mid-Hudson Valley (between Spackenkill and Red Oaks Mill to be exact), I consider the Dutchess and Orange County markets as Downstate as they are in the NYC media market. Ulster and Sullivan Counties I believe are in the NYC local station market too, so they would technically be downstate, but pretty rural downstate. That essentially covers all the land south of an imaginary dotted line connecting the NW corner of MA to the NE corner of PA.
Now, I think there are two parties at play here. The directional angle, "I'm going upstate from my place in Brooklyn," or "I'm heading downstate from Binghamton," and the geographical angle, "I used to live on Long Island, but I'm now living upstate near West Point," or "I own my own home in Scotia but bought a rental investment in Downstate New York. Newburgh to be specific." Both angles are correct but only one can have various skewing based on perspective. Is West Point really Upstate? Is Newburgh really Downstate. As it has been stated before, it is all perspective of the claimant.
If it makes anyone feel better, the NYS Department of Corrections calls its facility outside Fishkill (in Dutchess County just north of the Putnam County line for geographically challenged Manhattanites, which by the way, is a pain to spell ), Downstate Correctional Facility. It is off 9D but you can see the hitchhiker warning signs on I-84 between 9 and the Newburgh-Beacon Bridge.
However, that being said, I consider Westchester a pretty urban/suburban county. Rockland is a mix of suburban and exurban with some urban-ish areas around Nyack. Orange and Putnam counties have more suburban but beginnings of rural character. Ulster and Sullivan are pretty rural and due to limited or no train service on Metro North and probably feel more connected to Upstate NY than the NYC metro media market they are lumped into. Duchess County is weird because of Beacon and Poughkeepsie having stops on the Hudson line so they are a little more developed and commuters take the Taconic or I-84/I-684 into Westchester County for work. Or ride (2+ hours!!!) into Grand Central. Fishkill feels like a suburban extension of NYC. Millbrook and Red Hook? Not so much.
The point of this is where are Upstate is primarily rural, due in large part to its geographical size, it has places that are urban. Buffalo even has a pro sports team.
The opposite characteristics could be said for Downstate. Is it home to a world financial and industrialist capital and all the urban development that comes with it? Yes. But are there plenty of places that don't fit the mold of Williamsburg or Astoria? Oh yes there are. Even Montauk on the far tip of Long Island is probably a world away for the average locally born and bred Manhattanite.
As the New Yorker cover from 1976 demonstrates, Montauk might as well be Europe.
Last edited by wrightflyer; 10-04-2020 at 07:38 PM..
Reason: Emoji Change
Felt like I needed to add two cents from someone who does not live every day in NY... Upstate or Down.
Having family in the Poughkeepsie area of the Mid-Hudson Valley (between Spackenkill and Red Oaks Mill to be exact), I consider the Dutchess and Orange County markets as Downstate as they are in the NYC media market. Ulster and Sullivan Counties I believe are in the NYC local station market too, so they would technically be downstate, but pretty rural downstate. That essentially covers all the land south of an imaginary dotted line connecting the NW corner of MA to the NE corner of PA.
Now, I think there are two parties at play here. The directional angle, "I'm going upstate from my place in Brooklyn," or "I'm heading downstate from Binghamton," and the geographical angle, "I used to live on Long Island, but I'm now living upstate near West Point," or "I own my own home in Scotia but bought a rental investment in Downstate New York. Newburgh to be specific." Both angles are correct but only one can have various skewing based on perspective. Is West Point really Upstate? Is Newburgh really Downstate. As it has been stated before, it is all perspective of the claimant.
If it makes anyone feel better, the NYS Department of Corrections calls its facility outside Fishkill (in Dutchess County just north of the Putnam County line for geographically challenged Manhattanites, which by the way, is a pain to spell ), Downstate Correctional Facility. It is off 9D but you can see the hitchhiker warning signs on I-84 between 9 and the Newburgh-Beacon Bridge.
However, that being said, I consider Westchester a pretty urban/suburban county. Rockland is a mix of suburban and exurban with some urban-ish areas around Nyack. Orange and Putnam counties have more suburban but beginnings of rural character. Ulster and Sullivan are pretty rural and due to limited or no train service on Metro North and probably feel more connected to Upstate NY than the NYC metro media market they are lumped into. Duchess County is weird because of Beacon and Poughkeepsie having stops on the Hudson line so they are a little more developed and commuters take the Taconic or I-84/I-684 into Westchester County for work. Or ride (2+ hours!!!) into Grand Central. Fishkill feels like a suburban extension of NYC. Millbrook and Red Hook? Not so much.
The point of this is where are Upstate is primarily rural, due in large part to its geographical size, it has places that are urban. Buffalo even has a pro sports team.
The opposite characteristics could be said for Downstate. Is it home to a world financial and industrialist capital and all the urban development that comes with it? Yes. But are there plenty of places that don't fit the mold of Williamsburg or Astoria? Oh yes there are. Even Montauk on the far tip of Long Island is probably a world away for the average locally born and bred Manhattanite.
As the New Yorker cover from 1976 demonstrates, Montauk might as well be Europe.
The problem is that people somehow want to equate "upstate" with rural-ness in terms of arriving at a definition. I never understood this. For instance, much of eastern LI is rural, or ex-urban, or slightly-suburban, or whatever. Such doesn't lead to it being in a different geographical category. And much of "upstate" is urban - Buffalo, Rochester, Albany/Troy, Binghamton, etc. There are areas in Bergen County just a few minutes from Manhattan that are closer to the rural side of the scale than the urban one.
As stated above, and in my post earlier on this thread, the word "upstate" has many different meanings depending on context. It is used as a word to describe "that portion of the NYC metropolitan area which is in NY State but north of NYC". It is also used as a word to describe "that portion of NY State which is outside the NYC metropolitan area". These are two very different things. And as the poster above noted, it is also a word that is used to describe directional movement.
Because of the odd shape of NYS, it can't really be categorized in terms of general map coordinates. Because PA is rectangular, you can divide the state into southeast, northeast, north central, etc. Upstate and downstate are relative terms.
So there is the NYC metro, Hudson Valley, Adirondacks, southern tier, leather stocking district, Finger Lakes, etc.
Because of the odd shape of NYS, it can't really be categorized in terms of general map coordinates. Because PA is rectangular, you can divide the state into southeast, northeast, north central, etc. Upstate and downstate are relative terms.
So there is the NYC metro, Hudson Valley, Adirondacks, southern tier, leather stocking district, Finger Lakes, etc.
Broadly speaking, there are really only 3 regions in NYS - NYC Metro, Upstate, Western NY. I have always found the accents, terminology and culture of Western NY "different". Western NY is also anchored by two decent sized cities that have their own gravitational pull. It is just very far afield from the I-95 corridor of which Metro NYC is a big part. "Upstate" is the part of NYS that is outside both the NYC and the Buffalo/Rochester areas. Where you draw the lines would be subject to endless debate, and of course, each region would have different sub-regions, but nonetheless, I think broadly speaking there are 3 distinct areas of the state.
Broadly speaking, there are really only 3 regions in NYS - NYC Metro, Upstate, Western NY. I have always found the accents, terminology and culture of Western NY "different". Western NY is also anchored by two decent sized cities that have their own gravitational pull. It is just very far afield from the I-95 corridor of which Metro NYC is a big part. "Upstate" is the part of NYS that is outside both the NYC and the Buffalo/Rochester areas. Where you draw the lines would be subject to endless debate, and of course, each region would have different sub-regions, but nonetheless, I think broadly speaking there are 3 distinct areas of the state.
I agree, if I were to divide NY into 2 pieces, it would be [Upstate-Downstate] vs. [WNY-CNY].
I-87 links the Metropolitan area all the way up to the (eastern) North Country, with Albany tying then together at its axis in a way that I-90 does not.
Also the Hudson Valley/Albany region and the eastern slope of the Adirondacks have loose, but tangible connections to New England while WNY has more of a PA and Great Lakes influence. I mean, they call soda, 'pop' in Buffalo for crissakes! :-)
To be honest, WNY is just a sub region of Upstate(whatever that is). Even what constitutes WNY will vary based on the source or who you ask. Same goes for other sub regions like the Finger Lakes, CNY, the Southern Tier, etc.
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), Downstate Correctional Facility. It is off 9D but you can see the hitchhiker warning signs on I-84 between 9 and the Newburgh-Beacon Bridge.
