Amerigas propane market rates?!?!?!? (Pottsville, Wyoming: how much, home, heat pump)

[thecoalman]

Firstly is the quoted price the market rate plus delivery? That may explain the difference in the prices.

In any event if you're paying $4.92 a gallon that would be by far the most expensive fuel for heat I've seen so far. You could put electric in and save huge amounts of money and electric is expensive.

Here's breakdown of comparisons if you are using propane @$4.92/gallon and $3500 total

Coal(bulk) @200/ton : $541.44
Fuel Oil No.2 @$3.75/gallon : $2,007.75
Electric @$0.12/kWh : $1,828.07

That is not a lot of heat demand and you could easily meet it with a small stoker, you could literally pay for a brand new stoker, installation and the first years fuel bill for $3500. You'd be pocketing almost $3K every year after that if the cost for propane would remain that high.

[amstel78]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

That is not a lot of heat demand and you could easily meet it with a small stoker, you could literally pay for a brand new stoker, installation and the first years fuel bill for $3500. You'd be pocketing almost $3K every year after that if the cost for propane would remain that high.

Thanks for the info. I'll consider all my options.

FWIW, I spoke to my next door neighbor. He's literally next door. We both had our tanks filled on 11 December. The only difference is that he's got a 1000 gallon underground tank while mine is 500 gallons. His rate was only $3.25 per gallon while mine was $4.63. I can understand a small price difference due to the amount of fuel being delivered, but $1.38??? C'mon man...

[Wells5]

Have you tried "excavation contractors?" They install septic tanks, sand mounds and drain field. Certainly they can dig out a propane tank and return it to whoever owns it. They could also place a new propane tank in the old hole or dig a new one. Yellow Book supposedly lists 60 such contractors serving Pike County.

[amstel78]

Originally Posted by Wells5

Have you tried "excavation contractors?" They install septic tanks, sand mounds and drain field. Certainly they can dig out a propane tank and return it to whoever owns it. They could also place a new propane tank in the old hole or dig a new one. Yellow Book supposedly lists 60 such contractors serving Pike County.

Thank you for the tip. I found someone local to me that can pull the old tank and drop in the new one for a quoted price of $800.00. Local reviews are good too.

[jimazee]

Size and timing matter...own the tank... pay cash/check and promptly. Get a 1000 gal tank...use an excavation company if you can't find a turnkey gas company near you.

Learn when and from whom to buy by monitoring the tank level and calling at 'good' times. We often fill up in Aug/Sept (maybe 600-700 gal at 'avg- price') and top off in Dec/Jan (300-400 at 'avg price') because we have a rough driveway. One more in spring if needed about 200 gal (at avg+ price)).

Last price paid was 1.92 a few weeks ago. Only other quote we got was 2.25 or so.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by amstel78

His rate was only $3.25 per gallon while mine was $4.63. I can understand a small price difference due to the amount of fuel being delivered, but $1.38??? C'mon man...

Even at $3.25 you're in the $2600 range, you could buy the stoker and the fuel for one year and install it yourself.

As far as buying the tank goes you have the cost of the tank and it's now your responsibility, I believe they need to be inspected every ten years. I see a 1000 gallon tank listed on the internet for $1,700. There is probably at least another $1k for installation if you are going to do it underground. Also as I understand it some dealers won't deliver to tanks that are not theirs. That said if you have that much of a price difference certainly would be worth it over the life of the tank even if it were 10 years. If you are getting small deliveries and it's their tank you can expect to pay more. I was in the fuel delivery business for 15 years, making money on small deliveries is not easy. I'd take them but for those orders it would be there next week or 2 months from now.

Honestly at those prices even if you don't want to take advantage of the huge savings in coal, switch to electric... never thought I'd hear myself save that. Of course what the electric market is going to do is up in the air too.

[thecoalman]

Also you'd be prime candidate for one of these electric heaters if you have separate rooms and spend most of your time in one room. Don't fall for the hype for the expensive ones. Go to the home store and buy one that is reasonably priced. What you are looking for is an oil filled one or a ceramic heater with a fan. You can turn the thermostat down in the rest of the house to like 60 and use the electric heater to heat the room you are in.

[amstel78]

Thanks Coalman for the sound advise.

I do have a couple of oil filled space heaters; they look like little radiators and do the job of heating an average sized room quite well.

Still not sure about coal; I mentioned it to my wife and she wasn't keen on the idea.

Anyway, I've found an excavator in my neighborhood that can pull the old tank out and drop the new one in for about $800. I also got a few quotes for tanks from vendors in my area. One of them was Keystone which came back with the cheapest amount. They're charging about $1850+tax for a 500 gallon tank with regulators and anode bag, or about $2800 for a 1000 gallon unit. They also quoted me $2.09 per gallon if I owned the tank, or $2.49 if I leased a tank through them.

Back to coal though, I'm still trying to learn about this. A quick Google search yielded the following furnace which looked interesting.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/stor...ace-3000-sq-ft

From the specs, it appears to work in conjunction with the current gas furnace and existing HVAC ducting. My house is 4600 square feet with about 3800 square feet being heated. Would something like this suffice or would I need to buy a larger coal burner?

Where would I buy bulk coal from and are there storage requirements? Would I need to build a shed outside or something to store the coal?

Edit: found another furnace that's bigger but the price is substantially higher.
http://www.efireplacestore.com/uss-1802g.html

P.S. Any NEPA coal vendors you could link me to? Am interested in finding out about prices in my area for coal deliveries.

[Wells5]

Amstel, you might want to check out the "Anthracite Coal Forum" (Anthracite Coal Forum - NEPA Crossroads).

You've raised some very good questions about coal heating: who can deliver in bulk, how is it to be stored.

One important aspect of heating with anthracite, which our Coalman never mentions, is ash removal. There is an ash residue left from burning coal, sometimes containing unburned chunks of coal or slate. When I was a kid growing up in NEPA, there were haulers who would carry the full ash cans up the cellar stairs and into their dump truck. Where it was dumped, I never knew. Other folks just dumped the ashes in their yards. How is ash removal to be handled today?

The furnaces that you are looking at appear to be hand fired, something that you'd want to avoid. There are many stoker furnaces that are automatic and can be tied in to your current heating system. A heating contractor specializing in coal furnaces could give you an estimate on cost.

A coal stoker is usually fed from a hopper, which needs to be filled by hand perhaps once a week depending on size and usage. I remember seeing installations where a worm gear went directly from a coal bin into the stoker eliminating the hopper. I don't know if that type of feed is available today.

You'd need to build a coal bin in your basement if you want bulk delivery. A stone mason can build one out of concrete blocks. You used to be able to buy in bulk (5 tons) at wholesale prices delivered from Shamokin or thereabouts, but those carriers don't seem to be around. There are probably dealers closer to your home who can deliver smaller quantities, but at retail prices.

Changed your mind about coal heating?

[Wells5]

Didn't take note of this in my previous post, but you have forced air heating. This complicates things, especially if you also have central air. You can't just run ducting from your coal furnace into your existing ducts, but would need to attach a plenum with hot water coils from your coal furnace into your current ductwork. Big bucks for this.