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-As a very physically active person who leads a healthy lifestyle I resent paying more for health insurance because premiums and co-pays are driven up by those who have the "freedom of choice" to do themselves wrong by smoking, being obese, binge drinking, etc. Why should one's choice to be irresponsible for their own health detrimentally impact me financially as someone who IS health-conscious?
-As a non-smoker I resent having to inhale the exhaust of a cigarette as I step into an elevator in which the prior occupant had smelled like a chimney. Why should I surrender the ability to breathe clean air to give someone else the "freedom of choice" to smoke in public areas?
And, what does this have to do with Gainesville? I have not seen people drinking, smoking, and eating buckets of chicken as they drive down the street. People in cities don't engage in said behaviors, either?
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-As someone who conserves energy I resent that utility bills rise for everyone during periods of higher demand. Those who want the "freedom of choice" to live in a McMansion with voluminous square footage pay on their own with higher utility bills, but then the rest of us also pay because energy is a commodity driven by demand, and rates wouldn't be as high as they are if Mr. Jones wasn't heating and cooling the formal media room he only uses once per year.
Right, because everyone who lives in Gainesville lives in a McMansion that costs more to heat/cool with increased energy-use technologies and insulation than a drafty, older, smaller homes in closer-in areas.
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-As someone who doesn't like to see our brave men and women dying overseas in conflicts aimed to unseat dictators who threaten our supply of oil I resent that people utilize their "freedom of choice" to buy Hummers that they only intend to drive to their offices, grocery stores, restaurants, etc. when they could buy a Prius for much less money and conserve more fuel, thereby reducing our national demand for fossil fuels and help to wean us onto alternative energies so we can avoid "peak oil" EVER coming to a painful reality.
I didn't know that Hummers were a sign of Gainesville. I cannot say that I have seen them overrun the area. Hummers are also not being manufactured anymore, so how is this going to continue? And, people in Gainesville don't drive Prius? Hmm...not too sure about that one, since they can use I-66 and Dulles Toll Road carpool lanes.
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-As someone who wants his own grandchildren to enjoy the same natural beauty and scenic vistas that he is currently able to enjoy I resent that "freedom of choice" means that a Wal-Mart and beige-vinyl-sided tract-homes on cul-de-sacs are viewed as being a better usage for that land.
It's also ironic that I still can't legally wed in this Commonwealth that is supposedly noted for its excellent "freedom of choice" in all the above areas (and others I'm not listing), but I digress.
I'll always have a "common good" mindset because I'm an idealist. I don't see how eventually paving over nearly every square inch of land in an arc stretching from Winchester to Culpeper to Fredericksburg with car-centric developments is helpful to the "common good" when you can house just as many people on a fraction of the land area.
I said American way of life, not Commonwealth of Virginia. The development patterns you eschew are not just a local phenomenon.
And, cities are not the great places you may make them out to be. Look at asthma rates in East Harlem and the South Bronx, pollution at very high levels, and a lack of natural space and light, as the light is blocked by tall buildings. There are just as many arguments on both sides of the coin, and in this country, people can choose. Whether or not one as an indvidual chooses to live in Gainesville is immaterial, since people have the right to live there and like it, no matter what anyone else may prefer.
The vistas spoken of are not in the public domain. Private ownership of real estate is a hallmark of this country. There are preservations and preserves, and some new ones are created, but not all land will fall into that pattern, nor should it trample the individual owner's rights and investment without due compensation. But, then were back to square one and looking for someone to pay for the area. Gainesville, as pointed out, neighbors the rural crescent, and Warrenton is horse country. There is a balance struck in PWC and Faquier between land use and land preservation, much like what Western Loudoun has adopted recently.
Not all of Fairfax is paved over, by any stretch of the imagination, and there is a large population in the county, so I do not see how it's one paved suburb from DC to Winchester. Land use is a local issue, and each county, or incorporated jurisdiction makes its own policies. Just because I may not like it as a resident of another city/county/state does not give me the right to impose my will on the people who live and work in that community and are able to determine what they would want for their community. If I don't like it, I don't have to move there, but I certainly would not presume to tell someone what they can and cannot do just because it does not meet my preferences.
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All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.
~William Shakespeare (As You Like It Act II, Scene VII)
You know, whenever I see a community being unfairly maligned, I've always thought the best response is a photo tour. I hope one of the people who live out that way will grab a camera this weekend and show us your community. I've only been out there a few times (and mostly to go to the incredible Merrifield Garden Center) but from what I saw Gainesville would make a good subject for a photo tour.
I was trying to point out parallels that showcase how people need to start realizing that their "freedoms" can and often do detrimentally impact others, wrongfully, and that just because you have the "right" to do something doesn't necessarily make you saintly for doing it. People have the "freedom" to live in McMansions in exurbs and drive gas-guzzlers back-and-forth in heavy traffic, but why should I have to subsidize that freedom through tax dollars spent to improve the infrastructure there or endure the opportunity costs of then not being able to use that funding in a better way for the "common good?"
So few in NoVA can think of anyone but themselves. Everything you do has an action or a consquence upon someone else, and it's the continued demonstration of the lack of people's cognizance of this here that I will not miss when I move away.
You know, whenever I see a community being unfairly maligned, I've always thought the best response is a photo tour. I hope one of the people who live out that way will grab a camera this weekend and show us your community. I've only been out there a few times (and mostly to go to the incredible Merrifield Garden Center) but from what I saw Gainesville would make a good subject for a photo tour.
"Unfairly maligned?" With all due respect while a photo tour is a nice idea it's like the game "1 vs. 100" here. I'm the only one who takes issue with the lack of "smart growth" that appears to be occurring in Gainesville, so it's not like I'm making much of an impact onto people's thought processes and am obviously not the threat some of you make me out to be.
Also, a photo tour isn't always the answer to try to "prove someone wrong" because it can be done in a manner that is a bit misleading. No offense, Normie, but your tour of Tysons Corner completely ignored the mess of traffic, the large open parking lots, the strip malls, the construction zones, and other ailments there in order to just paint a Pollyanna view of the Ernst & Young Building, the mall, and the other few assets that Tysons Corner does have. I should know this more than anyone else because whenever Scranton, PA came under fire I did photo tours in which I intentionally overlooked the blight that riddles the city in favor of promoting and highlighting the city's strengths. Was that fair of me? No. It didn't portray the REALITY of the community. I already know you (or ngadude or some other volunteer) would do the same in Gainesville for another stab at "Look at how pretty Gainesville is and how wrong RestonRunner is" by completely neglecting to photograph or mention any of the problem areas that I've pointed out. Moderator cut: Let's leave the argument in the past if the issue is closed.
Last edited by bmwguydc; 10-15-2010 at 03:43 PM..
Reason: Let's leave the argument in the past if the issue is closed
The issues that drove me out of Manassas were mostly the invasion of people crowding 10+ people into 3 bedroom townhouses. I don't see that happening here in Gainesville, the housing is more expensive here . . .
"Expensive" is a little fuzzy here. I thought people found Gainesville "affordable" (as compared to similar areas in NoVA)? Areas that are "affordable" are ripe for investors especially now with the downturn in the housing market. And guess what alot of investors do once they buy that property? Rent it out. And when a landlord has a difficult time renting out property they look for a reliable renter who just may drag in a few others. I have even seen landlords comply with regs for Section 8 housing, thus turning a seemingly middle-class home into a place for Section 8 candidates.
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. . . and they won't be giving out mortgages to people who can't afford them - like they did in Manassas.
I was trying to point out parallels that showcase how people need to start realizing that their "freedoms" can and often do detrimentally impact others, wrongfully, and that just because you have the "right" to do something doesn't necessarily make you saintly for doing it. People have the "freedom" to live in McMansions in exurbs and drive gas-guzzlers back-and-forth in heavy traffic, but why should I have to subsidize that freedom through tax dollars spent to improve the infrastructure there or endure the opportunity costs of then not being able to use that funding in a better way for the "common good?"
So few in NoVA can think of anyone but themselves. Everything you do has an action or a consquence upon someone else, and it's the continued demonstration of the lack of people's cognizance of this here that I will not miss when I move away.
Just as they may ask why they need to subsidize mass transit when their community is not going to benefit from it. I never said people living in Gainesville were "saintly" for exercising their rights, but they do have the right to live there and enjoy it. I don't live in Gainesville, but it's not a horrible suburban wasteland by any stretch.
Personal liberties are not exactly a definition of a selfish person in Northern Virginia, or elsewhere. While some may not agree with another's choices, one must respect their right to make said choices. Public funding attempts to equalize need and demand, so if there's an issue it needs to be handled at the legislative level, not decrying people who choose to live in a newer house that is further from a city center as being selfish. For many years, Northern Virginia has had issues with getting the tax money's worth out of Richmond as projects in other areas of the Commonwealth have taken precedence, despite the needs. That's one reason why the oft-compared in this thread Tysons had issues for so many years, not because of apathy, but it was a matter of funding and reaching a critical mass with respect to need.
This region is a growing area, not a dying one, so there is a need for newer housing, and communities that will attract new residents and businesses. Virginia is a very business-friendly jurisdiction, and the thought patterns have been to attract businesses and residents. New residents also pay their taxes to subsidize improvements to infrastructure, not to mention employment, real estate, and consumption taxes, so they have just as much right as anyone to get representation for needs to improve transportation options, be they road or mass transit.
The "common good" is very nebulous and thrown around by many, not directing this at anyone in particular, just a general thought, but the reality is that there is always a subjective component to the application of the ideology. That's due to self-interest at the political level where fundig is allocated under our system of governance. So, while in the ideal, it's a good concept, the reality is that one's version of "common good" can differ, sometimes significantly, from another's. Who defines what is in the common interest/good and how it is applied is a very important consideration when thinking about communities, like Gainesville, as having to be deprived of rights to improved roadways as many in the Commenwealth have, based upon funding allocations. Just because one may not like the fact that people live there in cul de sacs, gated communities, and have parking lots is not a reason that their transportation needs take precedence over someone who may have to take a bus to the Metro in Arlington.
I-66 and Route 29 are not local Gainesville roads, but important arteries that connect various parts of the region. They cannot be ignored as there are implications for truck travel, both through and local, for deliveries, and a host of other reasons. If we, as a people, determine that we want more public land, then that has to be paid for, either by private donation, or public funding, but one cannot just tell a property owner that they do not have the right to use their property for its current zoned highest use, and diminish their investment and development potential, just because it's not the same as another may wish.
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All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.
~William Shakespeare (As You Like It Act II, Scene VII)
No offense, Normie, but your tour of Tysons Corner completely ignored the mess of traffic, the large open parking lots, the strip malls, the construction zones, and other ailments there in order to just paint a Pollyanna view of the Ernst & Young Building, the mall, and the other few assets that Tysons Corner does have.
Here's a few of the photos from that tour. What a shame that I ignored the construction sites.
BTW, you're welcome to post a photo thread of what you see in Tyson's, or add onto the first one as a rebuttal. I'd love to get more people adding to the photo threads we have. It would be nice to see some updated photos, since these were taken last July and construction has progressed since then,
http://www.keogan.com/tysonscorner0002.jpg (broken link)
Why, I even see some traffic. Sorry if you don't like the angle of my camera, but I was taking photos and driving at the same time. You get what you get.
Don't make assumptions about why I moved here. I moved here because my old neighborhood in Manassas was destroyed by people crowding into flophouses. My next door neighbors got caught breaking into my house trying to steal computers (caught red handed with a laptop). Nice neighbors. The police found 11 people in there, 3 separate "families" - all crowded into a 3 bedroom townhouse with 1400 square feet above ground (and a 700 square foot basement that was a fire hazard due to being spread wall to wall with mattresses). One of them was an illegal immigrant to on top of it all - I guess stealing computers from your direct neighbor was seen as a way to improve their standard of living here. They had so little room they threw a lot of old furniture out on their deck, which eventually collapsed, breaking the fence adjoining their property and mine in the back yard, and then their "landlord" went bankrupt, forcing me to pay for the damage.
Not "EVERYONE" wants to live in a cul-de-sac - but yes, some people do. Yet you want to deny those people the choice. I'm not denying people the choice to live in dense housing, why are you trying to force your will upon other people?
Stop making assumptions as to why people moved to where they are. Unless you know someone and asked them why they moved, you can't possibly get inside their head and guess why they choose to live where they do. There's a multitude of reasons people have (and not just one reason per person) for picking where they live.
You didn't mean to be offensive in starting this thread? Then why would you write a phrase like "What's the "upside" to dealing with the traffic headaches there, the lengthy commutes, and the ugly scenery?" I don't think the stretch you drove on Rt. 29 is full of ugly scenery - other than the railroad track area. It's lined with trees - but as usual you choose to single out something and generalize it to the extreme - just to try and be controversial. Well, you succeeded, but don't try and claim you didn't mean to be offensive when you drive through a place for 10 minutes and post something like that. You could have worded it far different if you "didn't mean to be offensive". We won't even go into personal attacks on here - that's a laugh!Of course, to you someone posts something contrary to what you said, and you take that as a personal attack.
Great Post! I'd give you more rep points if I could. I am sick of getting slammed for the choices that I make to live as I choose to live, just because someone else doesn't approve of my choices. I'm not asking ANYONE to approve of, or to fund, the choices that I make. Although I do pay for plenty of services that I don't use, like schools, sewage, public water, public pools, tot lots, tennis courts, public gyms, community centers, all things I pay for with my taxes and don't use. That's ok, we all pay for things we don't use. It's part of being a community with choices for everyone.
Gainesville is the new mixing bowl?!!! I had to laugh at that one! That's hilarious! And soon to be the new Tysons Corner! Whoda thunk it?!
So you can show me that every VDOT project designed to improve traffic flow in Gainesville was paid for exclusively by the people of Gainesville?
You just proved my point about how instead of confronting problems head-on in order to preserve their neighborhoods people would rather just vote with their feet and leave, letting the neighborhood go into further decline. This is exactly what has caused nearly every urban area in America to now become the collecting pond of society's ills as the stabilizing middle-class has fled. You and your neighbors could have rallied for Manassas to pass an ordinance not permitting more than four unrelated people to be able to dwell within one housing unit, as is the case apparently here in Fairfax County. You could have circulated a petition to garner signatures for that cause. If such an ordinance was already in place you and your neighbors could have stormed City Hall demanding it to be enforced. You could have put pressure on the offenders by making their lives unpleasant enough to know they weren't welcome.
In 20 years if you're mistaken and those Manassas-like "issues" DO start to infest Gainesville, are you then just going to move to Warrenton, or are you going to take a stand and fight to preserve the quality-of-life you've come to love in Gainesville? If everyone keeps on cutting and running from problems, then how will those problems ever cease to exist? Now that my depression has abated my fiercely idealistic streak is returning, and I refuse to throw my hands in the air and say ANY place is "hopeless." My colleague just relocated to Newark, NJ, and she lives in an UPSCALE area that was formerly crime-ridden and neglected. I just helped her move in, and I then went around to explore more of the city and liked what I saw. If Newark can improve, then why can't Manassas? I'm not trying to "attack" you here, but I'm just curious as to how Manassas will improve if everyone just keeps moving to Gainesville. If Gainesville adopts those "Manassas issues" (which IS possible if a certain demographic starts to arrive to take the low-wage service sector jobs that are becoming more plentiful there and decide to room together, as was the case apparently in Manassas), then how will moving to Warrenton or The Plains fix Gainesville?
I'm moving into Pittsburgh in order to roll up my sleeves and make a positive impact upon a city that is dying for tender-loving care after decades of everyone moving to the suburbs to escape problems that are not unlike those commonplace now in Manassas.
1.) I told you I conceded I was erroneous in having missed the crossing signals. Obviously you just bringing that facet back up again was attempted to be a pre-emptive "jab". It isn't working.
2.) VDOT solution to smoothing out Gainesville's snarls enters new phase Right in this article you can see nearly a half-BILLION state tax dollars are going to subsidize the "Mixing Bowl West" in Gainesville. I'm surprised you didn't know about this, and yet you live there?
What I'm trying to say is that you continue to perpetuate EVERY negative stereotype about urban built environments without considering any of the POSITIVES. Every neighborhood I pointed out to you is immensely nicer than Gainesville, and every one of those is indeed in a CITY. There are urban environments where you can live on a grid-shaped street network with sidewalks, curbs, driveways, and shade trees (vs. a cul-de-sac) and still have a large yard anf friendly neighbors. People like me are moving to cities to buy homes in transitioning areas to help make them stable middle-class neighborhoods again to help erode those stereotypes that all cities are "noisy, heavy traffic at all hours of the night, etc."
It wasn't a "usual snap judgment." I thought I had "missed" something about Gainesville, and I asked for clarification. I was directed to a link that shows the future of Virginia Gateway, which looks promising and is also something I was unaware of. That's a good thing in my book. I mentioned seeing the Harris Teeter area and the Wegman's area, and neither seemed like it was planned very well. Seeing housing areas that were mostly generally so far removed from shopping/dining options that one HAD to drive between them was NOT a good thing because that will only continue to serve to increase traffic congestion in the long-run as the population swells while furthering that same development pattern.
I DID pursue with city council not allowing more than a certain number of unrelated people in the house. Again, you make assumptions about me which are untrue. Manassas passed that resolution, and IMMEDIATELY got sued by the ACLU. So it was withdrawn. THAT is what caused the problems - the people of Manassas (and me) DID try to get that done and it failed because of liberals and the ACLU.
What pressure was I supposed to put on the offenders? Throw rocks at their house or something? One would think the city passing that resolution would have made them feel uncomfortable. OK, why don't you go there and try to fix this intractable problem. There's no solution, as people screamed "racist" at the city when the resolution to limit to only some number of unrelated people was passed. If you don't believe me, google it! At least do some research before you accuse the good citizens of Manassas of not doing anything and fleeing the city. I tried, and I gave up - the break-in to my house, loud music all hours of the night (I gave up calling the police - they'd come, the music would be back on an hour later - and the police had more important crimes to pursue than loud music at 3 AM in the morning) was the last straw. Once your house is broken into - you feel violated. I dare say most people would choose to move once their house is violated like that. One of the people in the house next to mine was a violent person who had raped a child who was only 10 years old. That' snot the kind of person I want to live next to!
And, what does this have to do with Gainesville? I have not seen people drinking, smoking, and eating buckets of chicken as they drive down the street. People in cities don't engage in said behaviors, either?
Right, because everyone who lives in Gainesville lives in a McMansion that costs more to heat/cool with increased energy-use technologies and insulation than a drafty, older, smaller homes in closer-in areas.
I didn't know that Hummers were a sign of Gainesville. I cannot say that I have seen them overrun the area. Hummers are also not being manufactured anymore, so how is this going to continue? And, people in Gainesville don't drive Prius? Hmm...not too sure about that one, since they can use I-66 and Dulles Toll Road carpool lanes.
I said American way of life, not Commonwealth of Virginia. The development patterns you eschew are not just a local phenomenon.
And, cities are not the great places you may make them out to be. Look at asthma rates in East Harlem and the South Bronx, pollution at very high levels, and a lack of natural space and light, as the light is blocked by tall buildings. There are just as many arguments on both sides of the coin, and in this country, people can choose. Whether or not one as an indvidual chooses to live in Gainesville is immaterial, since people have the right to live there and like it, no matter what anyone else may prefer.
The vistas spoken of are not in the public domain. Private ownership of real estate is a hallmark of this country. There are preservations and preserves, and some new ones are created, but not all land will fall into that pattern, nor should it trample the individual owner's rights and investment without due compensation. But, then were back to square one and looking for someone to pay for the area. Gainesville, as pointed out, neighbors the rural crescent, and Warrenton is horse country. There is a balance struck in PWC and Faquier between land use and land preservation, much like what Western Loudoun has adopted recently.
Not all of Fairfax is paved over, by any stretch of the imagination, and there is a large population in the county, so I do not see how it's one paved suburb from DC to Winchester. Land use is a local issue, and each county, or incorporated jurisdiction makes its own policies. Just because I may not like it as a resident of another city/county/state does not give me the right to impose my will on the people who live and work in that community and are able to determine what they would want for their community. If I don't like it, I don't have to move there, but I certainly would not presume to tell someone what they can and cannot do just because it does not meet my preferences.
Another great post! You know what - I see lots and lots of hummers on my commute to my office in Reston - but they are all along Fairfax County Parkway. I have not noticed them here in Gainesville. Yet another generalization about GAinesville!!! In fact, I dare say Reston has more Hummers driving around in Gainesville.
People throwing buckets of chicken in the streets - hilarious! I'll have to watch for that so I don't get hit with a flying chicken next time I go out for a walk! I didn't realize ONLY people in the suburbs did that! Yeah, we rednecks out here in the country aren't civilized - we roar down the roads in our Hummers, throw trash out the windows, and don't care about the "sprawl" we are creating.
Not every house is a McMansion. I don't believe mine qualifies - it is not that large as houses go. In my neighborhood, there are single family homes that are in the 1800 square feet range. Are they McMansions. Mine is a little bigger at 2540 square feet, but I don't consider it a McMansion unless it is 3000 square feet or more.
Of course, it is not surprising these generalizations about Gainesville - we've seen them made time and time before on this subforum.
By the way, I happen to drive a Prius - and I'm not the only one in Gainesville, or even in my neighborhood. Kind of shoots the "everyone drives a Hummer" theory to pieces, doesn't it?
Hummers must be really popular since they aren't being made anymore! They really are the minority, even in this area. OK, there's lots of SUV's around Gainesville and other parts, but Hummers??? Come on now. Anyway, good luck buying one in the future. Now, for work I occaisionally drive a military Humvee, but that's another story.....
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