moving from midwest, still trying to figure out aap/middleschools in Fairfax Co vs Arlington Schools (Jefferson: house, neighborhood)

[notebook]

Hello. We may be moving from midwest k-8 Catholic school to Northern Virginia. My oldest daughter would be starting 7th grade. I have looked at the school websites for both Fairfax Co and Arlington and trying to figure out the best fit. It will be a big change from a small K-8 program here. I am not sure if we could afford private school with the cost of housing (sticker shock!). My daughter is an A student and an advanced math class but trying to figure out how you get them into the right level in a Fairfax school seems a bit daunting. If we buy a house in a pyramid let's say Madison in Vienna what is the next step? Do all the kids have to be tested to determine what level they are in? What is the difference between AAP 4 and AAP 2-3? Is it less complicated to move to the Arlington Schools? Thank you.

[michgc]

Hi,

I cannot comment on Arlington schools but I will share a bit of what I know about AAP. Level 4 is a full-time "Advanced Academic Program." That means, a child in Level 4 takes all 4 of her core classes (math, science, social studies, and language arts) at an advanced level with other advanced students. Level 3 may simply mean a child gets pulled out once per week for some extra enrichment or something similar (at least at the elementary schools).

In order to get into the Level 4 program, a child needs to take the CogAT and NNAT. This is done in first and second grade for 3rd grade placement. Once a child is in the Level 4 they are eligible to be in it through 8th grade. If a student moves into the school system after 2nd grade or doesn't qualify for level 4 for 3rd grade, she can try to get in for a higher grade (4th through 8th). For new students to FCPS, there is testing in October and child can gain entry into the Level 4 program in the second semester. See timeline here: Advanced Academic Programs If she is already in a gifted and talented program and has NNAT scores and CogAT scores, I'd contact the AAP office and try to get your child in starting in September if that's what you want. For 7th grade it would seem harmful to have a child start at a school in 7th grade and then switch to a new school mid-year, unless your base middle school happens to also house the AAP.

Having said that, for 7th and 8th grade there is an honors program in regular middle schools. I know at Thoreau Middle School (which is a feeder for Madison in Vienna), the honors program is very strong and many students who are in Level 4 and went to an AAP center for 3rd through 6th grade still opt to go to Thoreau and do their honors program there since it is their base middle school and has an overall good reputation (and probably because it has higher SES demographics than the AAP school - Jackson Middle School - for these students). That may be good enough for your child and would also get your child to know more students in the school pyramid who eventually feed into Madison. Hope this helps.

ETA: One negative with the honors program is that recently some doofus decided that honors classes should be "open enrollment" to anyone who wants them, not just those who qualify. I don't know what percentage of "unqualifed" students actually take honors classes and if that results in "dumb-downed" honors classes. Also, I *think* this is true for just honors English, honors science, and honors social studies. I believe for honors math, a student needs to be approved by staff members and have certain standardized test scores. See here: http://www.fcps.edu/DIS/aap/honors.html . Someone correct me if I gave any misinformation - my child, while in the AAP, is only in 3rd grade, so I'm not "up" on middle school policies.

[JD984]

I will add that, as people in the Vienna area assigned to Thoreau get more familiar with Jackson, they become more likely to send their AAP kids there. Over the past three years, for example, the number of students in the GT/AAP program at Jackson increased from 122 to 160 to 192.

That's not to say Thoreau is not a great school or that some parents with AAP students don't decide to keep their kids there so they can stay together with others in their school pyramid (although about 15-20% of Thoreau feeds into Marshall HS, rather than Madison HS) or avoid a school like Jackson with more low-income students. It's just that, over time, parents with AAP students tend to want their kids in the most advanced program available. A lot of it will have to do with how Jackson MS students fare in terms of getting admitted to TJ, the magnet math/science school. If the numbers at Jackson are flat, people will be more likely keep their kids at Thoreau. If they go up, people will be more likely to send their kids to Jackson.

[michgc]

And I will add, as the neighborhood around Jackson improves over time, which I think it will, it will also influence people's decision to send their children there.

I want to add, also, that if we started in this school district in 7th grade, I'd probably just bypass the two years of AAP and put my child in their base school honors program, unless my child was truly a brilliant mathematician or brilliant scientist, etc. If my child is just "advanced" and very smart, I think honors is probably good enough at this point especially if it involves moving schools mid-year. Thoreau is a very good school and has a very good reputation from what I hear. (It's the school we feed into, as well.)

Originally Posted by JEB77

I will add that, as people in the Vienna area assigned to Thoreau get more familiar with Jackson, they become more likely to send their AAP kids there. Over the past three years, for example, the number of students in the GT/AAP program at Jackson increased from 122 to 160 to 192.

That's not to say Thoreau is not a great school or that some parents with AAP students don't decide to keep their kids there so they can stay together with others in their school pyramid (although about 15-20% of Thoreau feeds into Marshall HS, rather than Madison HS) or avoid a school like Jackson with more low-income students. It's just that, over time, parents with AAP students tend to want their kids in the most advanced program available. A lot of it will have to do with how Jackson MS students fare in terms of getting admitted to TJ, the magnet math/science school. If the numbers at Jackson are flat, people will be more likely keep their kids at Thoreau. If they go up, people will be more likely to send their kids to Jackson.

[notebook]

Thank you for the info. It will be hard enough moving for 7th grade that I think switching schools again would be hard mid year. If you are not in AAP 4 in middle school does this set you back for high school? Does anyone know how things are done moving into Arlington middle schools? Is there testing? So much stuff to weed through! Thank you.

[michgc]

I don't think being in the honors program would set you back unless your child were applying to get into Thomas Jefferson (a very elite magnet school for math/science students). After 8th grade there is no Level 4 AAP, so at Madison former AAP students take lots of AP classes. At other base schools, there is the IB program available instead (such as Marshall High School). I *think* besides if you are applying to TJ, the only way not going to an AAP school for middle school would hurt is if your child didn't get into the honors math at your base school. I *think* being in that honors math may be the key to taking more advanced math classes in high school. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[shamrock847]

Originally Posted by michgc

ETA: One negative with the honors program is that recently some doofus decided that honors classes should be "open enrollment" to anyone who wants them, not just those who qualify. I don't know what percentage of "unqualifed" students actually take honors classes and if that results in "dumb-downed" honors classes. Also, I *think* this is true for just honors English, honors science, and honors social studies. I believe for honors math, a student needs to be approved by staff members and have certain standardized test scores. See here: Advanced Academic Programs .

As long as the kid is capable of doing the work, why should the standardized test scores matter? Just because one kid isn't as good at taking the test as another doesn't necessarily make them less qualified or dumb down the class. The worse test taker may even be a better student because they work harder or are more motivated about the subject than someone who is simply good at test taking.

[michgc]

Where did I say standardized test scores should be used for enrollment in honors classes? Umm, I didn't. I said they should qualify for it - that might include good grades or a hard work in prior classes in the subject, teacher recommendations, some outside-the-classroom work that shows an unusual interest or talent in that subject, or good test scores, or a combination of all of the above. As long as the student is capable of doing the work he should be able to take the class. But the problem is that "anybody" can sign up for honors whether he is capable of the advanced/fast-paced work or not. As I understand it, that means you could be mediocre at science, have poor grades in science, put very little effort into your prior science classes, but if you suddenly decide (or more likely, your parents suddenly decide for you) that you want to be in the honors science class, you can get in.

Sure, one poor student may not have an impact on the rest of the class. But what if 5 or 10 students who are mediocre at science decide to sign up for honors science? Suddenly, the class is no longer an honors class and the students who can handle honors science get shortchanged. That's why I think it is bad policy not because someone has low standardized test scors.

[Doppelganger69]

FYI, if you are moving into FCPS the test-in requirements are much broader than if you're trying to get in once here. You don't need Cogat or NNAT testing specifically - there's a list you can find here Advanced Academic Programs that shows the entire process. You can apply as soon as you get here and get in the appropriate placement for the fall (we moved here over xmas break one year and they got us in the right class on the first day in January.)

Also, if you are considering private at all, find out what the admission requirements are at the private schools around here. Lower grades require the WISC - I'm not sure at what point that switches to another test. If you show up with test scores in hand, they will expedite either private school admissions or GT center admissions.

[shamrock847]

Originally Posted by michgc

Where did I say standardized test scores should be used for enrollment in honors classes? Umm, I didn't. I said they should qualify for it - that might include good grades or a hard work in prior classes in the subject, teacher recommendations, some outside-the-classroom work that shows an unusual interest or talent in that subject, or good test scores, or a combination of all of the above. As long as the student is capable of doing the work he should be able to take the class. But the problem is that "anybody" can sign up for honors whether he is capable of the advanced/fast-paced work or not. As I understand it, that means you could be mediocre at science, have poor grades in science, put very little effort into your prior science classes, but if you suddenly decide (or more likely, your parents suddenly decide for you) that you want to be in the honors science class, you can get in.

So how does FCPS determine which students "qualify"? From some of the other posts and the links to the FCPS website it seems to be almost entirely based on test scores. Am I missing something about FCPS taking a more holistic approach including recommendations not influenced by test results, demonstrated student interest, grades, outside enrichment, and student motivation?

I'm not trying to pick a fight, or to put words in your mouth - I understand your personal views might differ from the FCPS reality. I'm simply interested in better understanding the process for this in FCPS like the OP and others are.

Originally Posted by michgc

Sure, one poor student may not have an impact on the rest of the class. But what if 5 or 10 students who are mediocre at science decide to sign up for honors science? Suddenly, the class is no longer an honors class and the students who can handle honors science get shortchanged. That's why I think it is bad policy not because someone has low standardized test scors.

This scenario could happen just as easily with students who test well but do not put the required effort in to the class.

I would expect if students who can't handle or aren't willing to do the course work enroll in an honors course their grades would reflect their inability to keep up rather than slowing down the class for the rest of the students. Pretty soon either they'd catch up, or especially if they were only there because of parental pressure, drop back to a level they could handle. No need for underperforming students to drag down the rest of the class at the middle school or high school level, either they can cut it or they don't. If they need help they can get it outside of class at that age.

Personally, I think parents and students, advised by teachers and test scores are in a better position to make placement decisions than some sort of central committee, especially in middle and high school. If the parents/students make a bad decision despite being fully informed then they need to deal with the consequences (poorer grades, extra work to keep up, etc). Over time, things will work themselves out, and I'd rather have a system that trusts the judgment of the "consumers". Not everyone will agree with me and that's fine.

I too would be interested to see if the open enrollment policy is leading to any changes in the make up of honors classes and in the overall performance of students in those classes. A few points on a test may have determined eligibility in the past while in class performance is influenced by a broader array of factors. My guess is that open enrollment will likely have a negligible impact and we may even see more students can perform at that level than previously expected, especially after the growing pains associated with implementing any policy change are over. Obviously, not everyone agrees with this, but as far as I know none of us have any reliable data to go off of, just our opinions.

I even agree open enrollment in honors classes may result in some students who can't handle the work being put there, although I doubt they will be the 20 - 50% of the class you hypothesized about, and I don't think the ones who can't handle it have to drag everyone else down. Those parents who insist little Johnny must be the most gifted child in the whole school and must be in the most advanced class, almost as some sort of status symbol for the parents, even when it clearly does not make sense, will get a rude awakening when he comes home with a "D" in his honors class. Likewise, there are other parents in this area who let everyone know their kid is in the whatever level program, again like some sort of status symbol. "I drive an Audi and my son is in 8th grade Geometry." "I drive a beater, but my son is in 8th grade IBAPFU Calculus 3.14." I don't know if this is common where the OP is coming from, but they will definitely see it in NoVA.