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Expect continued tax increases as well as Loudoun continues to have a higher real estate tax rate than neighboring socialist hell holes of Fairfax and Arlington.
Expect continued tax increases as well as Loudoun continues to have a higher real estate tax rate than neighboring socialist hell holes of Fairfax and Arlington.
I don't disagree with the goal of reining in sprawl--but re. taxes, it's important to consider assessments as well as rates. Arl may have a lower rate, but assessments are higher than most other jurisdictions'--so that the tax bill for a home here will be higher than a comparable home in most other counties in the DC area.
So I've gotten into this discussion before and I have to disagree completely. The total tax payment is not the important number and I will tell you why.
Considering a decision circle divided by 4 options created by 2 variables. So you have high tax and high home price, you have high tax and low home price, you have low tax and high home price, and you have low tax and low home price.
In this scenario the ranking of what would be worse value would be worst:best (2, 4, 1, 3). And even if you disagree with that you would still likely agree that #2 is the worst scenario and #3 would be the best. In other words, while tax rate is important, no one is complaining that Arlington home values have gone up 200% in the past 20 years. Much of the value increase has come from having county services that are much better than low tax low value areas. I know people complain in Arlington also about certain services, but move to a place which has literally no budget and you will see what bad schools and services are really about.
So while total tax is important, unless your home value on the market is much lower than what they are assessing it, then its really not a bad problem to have. Tax rate being higher however is a problem because it going higher has no benefit to you (where as a higher assessed, and therefore a tracking market value would).
If you disagree, I would gladly pay your taxes on your place if you sell it to me for the same price as a comparable home in Loudoun. Do we have a deal?
@Carlingtonian: So I've gotten into this discussion before and I have to disagree completely. The total tax payment is not the important number and I will tell you why.
Considering a decision circle divided by 4 options created by 2 variables. So you have high tax and high home price, you have high tax and low home price, you have low tax and high home price, and you have low tax and low home price.
You're arguing what is most relevant in a given person's housing decisions. I'm simply pointing out that dangling higher tax rates as the bette noir for sprawl gives sprawl advocates an easy straw man to shoot down. They will point out that what they actually pay in RE taxes every year is lower than what those closer in are paying.
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Originally Posted by tysonsengineer
In this scenario the ranking of what would be worse value would be worst:best (2, 4, 1, 3). And even if you disagree with that you would still likely agree that #2 is the worst scenario and #3 would be the best. In other words, while tax rate is important, no one is complaining that Arlington home values have gone up 200% in the past 20 years.
Well, no one who bought 20 years ago is complaining. The rest of us would have been glad to see a more incremental increase in housing values. Sure, we might do well by selling our house now--but any home that replaces it will be even more expensive, unless we buy farther out. It's also worth noting that the major increase in value is mostly land value--so that most of the affordable SFH housing has been razed and replaced by McMansions.
What the inordinate increase in Arlington/FC/McLean property values has ultimately meant is that some made out like bandits, others are doing OK but spending way more of their household income on housing than they should, and a huge number of others can't afford to buy anything that fits their needs--unless they buy farther out. Some people are never going to want a condo or a townhouse; they'd rather buy in Loudoun or PW and drive in, even if that means getting up super early or sitting in a lot of traffic. So the increase in property values encourages sprawl.
I thus don't think the boom of the mid-oughts was a good thing for the community. Am I constantly complaining about it? No--because what good would it do?
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Originally Posted by tysonsengineer
Much of the value increase has come from having county services that are much better than low tax low value areas. I know people complain in Arlington also about certain services, but move to a place which has literally no budget and you will see what bad schools and services are really about.
Having lived in Arlington for more than a decade, I have to disagree there. Is it Naples? No. But the roads are full of potholes, and the schools are packed to the gills. Meanwhile, the Board is spending millions on silly projects that most of us don't want--like the Artisphere, sprayground, $1 million bus stop, $1.6 million dog park (and I'm a dog owner/lover, btw), and the streetcar down Columbia Pike. The schools vary in quality; the wealthy ones are great, and the poor ones are not. Pretty much like everywhere else. But they're bursting at the seams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonsengineer
So while total tax is important, unless your home value on the market is much lower than what they are assessing it, then its really not a bad problem to have. Tax rate being higher however is a problem because it going higher has no benefit to you (where as a higher assessed, and therefore a tracking market value would).
If you disagree, I would gladly pay your taxes on your place if you sell it to me for the same price as a comparable home in Loudoun. Do we have a deal?
Ha! Nice try--but again, your point here seems to be that property taxes are not a deterrent to home sales. I generally think that's probably true--but that wasn't my point, which was that putting aside the reason for comparing RE taxes, let's at least compare the same thing--the total tax bill. When someone compares tax rates for two jurisdictions rather than final assessments, that's like taking a job in SFO because it pays $5000 more a year than the one you have in Omaha.
@Carlingtonian, do your kids pay a fee to go to school via bus? Are pre-k programs cut? Are better teachers leaving en masse because pay is far worse than neighboring counties?
Those are real service problems. You can complain about potholes and crowded schools but you would find it much harder being a parent in a place with truly bad schools, often associated with low taxes. I have many friends currently dealing with this issue in low cost counties. There are potholes, but Arlington also has one of the least congested roadways of any comparable mid-size jurisdiction, that on top of the fact that most traffic in Arlington is outside of their control from outer suburbs. So yes, potholes are bad, but some of those projects that have been deemed silly are indeed the reason why your commute is not hell.
End of the day you remain in Arlington despite paying higher total payments toward tax. Why? Because your assessed value (the largest component of why you pay more taxes than in Loudoun) is accurate and because you like that you dont live in low service low tax areas. You say you would have to buy somewhere as expensive if you sold. False. You could live in those outer burbs where your taxes would be less... yet you remain.
Will agree to disagree. Money and feet talk... yours on a microdecision basis are pointing towards being fine living in Arlington.
@Carlingtonian, do your kids pay a fee to go to school via bus? Are pre-k programs cut? Are better teachers leaving en masse because pay is far worse than neighboring counties?
No, because we have none, thank God. However, I don't doubt that having 30-40 kids in a classroom is a bad scene. As to the teachers, no idea. But even if they aren't, the crowding itself is a bad enough problem, never mind the continuing (expensive) school expansions and redistricting that result. Arl just finished expanding Washington-Lee HS less than 10 years ago--and it's already overcrowded. Now they're talking about expanding some elementary school in S. Arl into a public park!
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Originally Posted by tysonsengineer
Those are real service problems. You can complain about potholes and crowded schools but you would find it much harder being a parent in a place with truly bad schools, often associated with low taxes. I have many friends currently dealing with this issue in low cost counties.
So the schools in Loudoun and Fairfax Counties are no good? Surprised to hear that.
All I want the County government to do is maintain the utilities, fill the potholes, school the neighbors' larvae, lock up the criminals--and that's pretty much it.
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Originally Posted by tysonsengineer
There are potholes, but Arlington also has one of the least congested roadways of any comparable mid-size jurisdiction, that on top of the fact that most traffic in Arlington is outside of their control from outer suburbs. So yes, potholes are bad, but some of those projects that have been deemed silly are indeed the reason why your commute is not hell.
Now come on. You can't seriously be asserting that the Artisphere, $1 million bus stop, etc., are the reason the traffic is not as bad as it could be. If you mean the Metro is the reason, I would agree--and I never called the Metro silly. I think it's a good thing. But your point was that the higher tax bills in Arlington are justified by a higher quality of services--and in my experience, that just isn't the case.
On the subject of congestion: Although Arlington has historically had less of it, the County's continual push for more development is ending that. They keep adding new apartment buildings and with them, new stoplights. They keep reducing lanes of traffic to put in bike lanes (even when major bike/ped paths are nearby and go the same places).
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Originally Posted by tysonsengineer
End of the day you remain in Arlington despite paying higher total payments toward tax. Why? Because your assessed value (the largest component of why you pay more taxes than in Loudoun) is accurate and because you like that you dont live in low service low tax areas. You say you would have to buy somewhere as expensive if you sold. False. You could live in those outer burbs where your taxes would be less... yet you remain.
We stay here because it's a quick drive (!) to DC and to my job in Alexandria.
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Originally Posted by tysonsengineer
Will agree to disagree. Money and feet talk... yours on a microdecision basis are pointing towards being fine living in Arlington.
Well, we might just move in the near future, to get more land and maybe a garage--in which case I will be sure to invite you to the open house!
What percentage of the budget goes towards the artisphere and million dollar bus stop (which btw please stop using as a case point considering 1, its moot, and 2, the number is not even accurate).
What percentage of the Arlington budget goes specifically to metro and schools? You can talk about the highly politicized garbage discussions of these over blown projects but they are meaningless and have nothing to do with high taxes and structural policies of a jurisdiction.
I will be on the look out for your place, I'm sure you are glad Arlington didn't stop funding metro and schools for the sake of decreasing your tax payment... otherwise you might be selling a fairly worthless property.
BTW, a nice sunday glass of green fin to you sir.
Loudoun schools aren't bad yet, they will be at the pace they are going within the next decade. Fairfax has equally "socialist" tendencies as Arlington, I never made the case Fairfax schools are bad.
What percentage of the budget goes towards the artisphere and million dollar bus stop (which btw please stop using as a case point considering 1, its moot, and 2, the number is not even accurate).
Don't know, but this stuff obviously adds up. And re. your parenthetical: It's accurate. I take it you're implying that if they build 100 of these bus stops, the cost will go down--but it will still be much higher than building a regular bus stop, all so it can have real-time arrival info. I used the bus for years without that, and I didn't even have a smartphone when I did. I consulted the paper bus schedule and got to the bus stop early. If the bus didn't come or came too early, I grabbed the next one. I didn't fail to plan ahead and then expect my fellow taxpayers to pay for that by providing a lah-dee-dah high-tech e-ticker of bus times.
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Originally Posted by tysonsengineer
What percentage of the Arlington budget goes specifically to metro and schools? You can talk about the highly politicized garbage discussions of these over blown projects but they are meaningless and have nothing to do with high taxes and structural policies of a jurisdiction.
They're not garbage discussions. The reason the Independent candidate (Vihstadt) just won his seat on the County Board is that thousands of otherwise Dems like us voted for him--because we're tired of seeing the County spend more and more money on these ridiculous and expensive pet projects. It's not meaningless to point out that such projects--like anything a government does--are funded by taxes, which keep going up in Arlington. You seem to want to argue that tax bills exist in a vacuum and have no relation to the expenditures of the entity collecting them. I don't think you actually believe that.
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Originally Posted by tysonsengineer
I will be on the look out for your place, I'm sure you are glad Arlington didn't stop funding metro and schools for the sake of decreasing your tax payment... otherwise you might be selling a fairly worthless property.
BTW, a nice sunday glass of green fin to you sir.
It'll be a while probably--spring at the earliest. We might not even move.
Thanks--right back at you! (For now, I've gone back to $3 Chuck and growlers of beer from Sweetwater Tavern in Merrifield.)
They are garbage because the ones that have become highly politicized (million dollar buses and artisphere as you point out) make up .01% of an annual budget. The tax revenues in Arlington go to important things I'd wager you wouldn't want to get rid of like road maintenance, schools, and metro. That is the majority of budget expenditure not these fringe boil up discussions. Now, if you want to talk streetcar... ok... but then again the street car proposals sure have a lot more to do with metro like proposal (which you say you support) than these other much smaller proposals.
There is no correlation between the million dollar bus stops and what your tax rate is. Its meaningless in terms of the way it affects your tax rate because it is miniscule (and because the million dollar bus stop was never 1 million dollars). Adding the equivalent of R&D into what something costs to implement is not how ANY industry in the world operates. R&D is recouped obviously. But when company A designs a product in R&D and then makes its 1st product, they dont say that 1st product is cost of product + all R&D... that is stupid. So why the bus stops were treated this way is obvious. It has to do with politics not reality. Hook line sinker.
BTW, as a person who is stuck in Fairfax's non-real time information bus network you couldn't possibly be showing your age more and your lack of understanding of how good transit works. I have a bus that comes ever 6 minutes that I do not ever use (the circulator) because there is no real time info on it. Where as I use a bus that comes ever 30 minutes that has real time because I can make decisions on when to get it. That means that very expensive bus goes almost completely unused. While the cheaper route gets the most bang for its buck.
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