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You might be surprised at how much other things in Pgh. cost (I pick up groceries, fruit and veggies, etc. regularly for friends when I'll be visiting them there) groceries are higher there (I think because they don't have the competition we do), gas is usually higher, utilities, etc.
I, too, noticed how dirt cheap groceries are here in NoVA. I did my weekly shopping last week at Giant for $50! Some of you may recall a few weeks ago I posted a thread asking about the most affordable store(s) to shop at for grocery items, and some replied that I'd have to drive to a few places to get the best deals. I can afford $50/week for food, so I'm grateful that won't be necessary as there's a Giant about 1.5 miles from my apartment. Gas is about the same right now, and utilities probably are a bit higher---the older infrastructure means the utility companies there have to hire more maintenance workers, which equates to hire upkeep costs that are passed on to the consumer.
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Originally Posted by CaseyMac
While I've only been to Pitt twice, it is a great town. I enjoyed walking around Oakland and the university area.
I think what Pittsburgh lacks is that it is not on the East Coast business center corridor. DC, NY and Boston are all hot center areas just like Seattle, SF and LA on the west. Most cities in between cost much less.
I will say I enjoy walkable and fun areas so if I had to choose between Oakland and Centreville, I'd go with Oakland any day.
I just don't "get" why NoVA doesn't have more of those "fun, walkable areas," and I suppose I never will. I LOVE Brambleton, for example, because it takes the best of suburbia and the best of urbanity and combines them into one great package, and yet places like Brambleton are very rare here while sprawling "cul-de-sac to nowhere" wastelands are popping up on every acre like giant eyesores. If we HAD more of those "fun, walkable areas," then supply would increase, bringing prices down so more people could AFFORD to live in such areas. Brambleton still has a ways to go, but at full build-out that is the type of environment that should be ENCOURAGED in NoVA.
For what it's worth though Philadelphia and Baltimore are also in the BosWash Corridor and have substantially lower housing prices while still having great job markets (well as good as they can be in an incessant recession). You could get a nice rowhome in an emerging Philadelphia neighborhood for the fraction of a price of a rowhome in a "questionable" DC neighborhood. You could get a condo in Center City for less than a similarly-appointed condo in Ballston, and I can tell you 9 out of 10 people would prefer to live in the former over the latter. Baltimore has some great AFFORDABLE urban neighborhoods as well. I suppose what bugs me the most is that there are no middle-class-friendly owner-occupied urban neighborhoods inside the Beltway whereas most other cities DO have that element to them. Here you're resigned to renting forever inside the Beltway or buying a home 30 miles out in Sprawlsville.
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Originally Posted by 540_804
Its simply supply and demand. The demand for nice, desirable, walkable neighborhoods in Northern VA is higher than in NEPA. Additionally, I would imagine wages are higher in NOVA as well. As long as their is a high demand for housing and people who can "afford" (and I use that term loosely) to live their, prices will be high.
I would imagine that if suddenly 20,000 new high-paying jobs were introduced in NEPA, the prices of housing would increase. If developable land close to those jobs were scarce then that increase in housing price would be amplified...
Isn't much fun for us who don't make 120k a year, but its life..lol.
You're correct in that there are more well-paying jobs available in Metro DC than in Metro Scranton/Wilkes-Barre for certain, but there has been an influx of NYC/NJ transplants into NEPA in recent years (so much so that Scranton/Wilkes-Barre's population has grown now for several consecutive years after many decades of steep decline). These upper-middle-class people aren't moving to these treasured in-town homes; they are moving to new McMansions not unlike what you'd find in Fair Oaks, Centreville, Chantilly, Gainesville, etc. I just don't understand it.
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Originally Posted by typical guy
You need to buy further out, you need to use an FHA loan and you need to get a gift from your parents. You can buy in Prince William County at fairly reasonable prices right now.
By the way, you can find a bunch of townhouses in parts of PWC such as Woodbridge and Manassas in the price range of your Pittsburgh places. Prices in the county have essentially leveled off now (it's essentially bottomed in PWC) and townhouses have been hit really hard.
Thanks for the encouragement. Unfortunately though I couldn't care less about how large or impressive the home was. I am more concentrated on wanting to live in a shack of a home in an "in-town" location (i.e. walkable business district, parks/churches in the neighborhood, sidewalks, etc.) That's very difficult to find in NoVA for under $400,000, so if you're single and are not an attorney, physician, etc. then forget about it. As far as the family is concerned I'd never hit them up for cash anyways. I'm fiercely financially indepedent and feel badly that I NEED them to pay a bill or two of mine every month because my budget just can't balance otherwise. My parents are in their mid-50s, and I want them to bank all they can NOW to help them have a nice retirement.
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Originally Posted by guyincognito
Jobs. Your personal anecdotes aside, the Pittsburgh job market, along with many other rust-belt cities, is not doing well. Ironically, it is people like you (not being pejorative) fleeing their home state's economy from Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania, etc. that are buoying the housing market here with lots of demand. Regardless of actual salary, demand increases housing prices because of rental values, and in Arlington there are lots of places to rent.
As I'm sure you're aware, Federal employees in the DC area are paid more locality pay to offset the higher cost of living (although it doesn't really help all that much). If you move to Pittsburgh be prepared to take a pay cut.
I was able to buy a house at the age of 24, but it was a townhouse way out in Western Fairfax and pre-housing boom. During the hay days of real estate is seemed like easy money, but to be honest it is kind of an albatross around my neck now. I got tired of living in the boonies and wanted to move closer in, but didn't want to try and sell the house in such a dour economy. I was fortunate in being able to rent it out to a great family, but I'm always concerned about when the day comes they decide to move out, or something big breaks requiring an outlay of serious cash.
I rent in Arlington... I suppose I would buy if I could afford it and could get another mortgage (unlikely), but renting has a lot of advantages. Nothing is your responsibility. You think you'll be able to get rid of your car, but frankly in that part of Arlington it would be a large inconvenience, especially on weekends. Don't forget to factor in the much larger energy bills trying to heat/cool more space with 1940s era insulation.
If you want a house, look at finding a roommate occupying a house in North Arlington. Lots of houses are up for rent, and I'm sure most owners would be accommodating of setting up a small garden. If you end up in an apartment or condo, Arlington also has a community garden program. Community Garden Program : Parks, Recreation & Cultural Resources : Arlington, Virginia
Don't despair, it's nice to have a goal, but make the best of the situation you're in today.
Actually Pittsburgh's job market isn't hopeless, and the most recent census estimates show that the city may be ready to start posting population gains in a couple of years after many decades of steep decline. I have a few friends who snagged great jobs in Pittsburgh right out of college with starting salaries just below my own. The difference? They can buy a home in two years in a walkable city neighborhood. I don't know if I ever can here. Where in Arlington/Alexandria/DC can a single young professional afford a small detached home? Everything I've looked at is in the neighborhood of $400,000+!
My current salary in DC: $41,210
My anticipated salary by age 28 in DC: $86,927
Can I buy a house? Nope.
My current salary in Pittsburgh: $38,786
My anticipated salary by age 28 in Pittsburgh: $81,815
Can I buy a house? A darn-tootin' amazing one!
Employers in DC just don't pay well enough to compensate for the outrageous cost of housing here. I wonder how our janitors, sanitation workers, servers, and other blue-collars afford to raise their families? It's just disturbing, really.
Most of the people on this forum who are 100% unsympathetic are those who bought a home with dual incomes before the housing bubble took off. They now don't want people like me "whining" because then they lose out on a portion of their investment if the prices come down any further. Too bad. The bubble became WAY TOO LARGE, and real estate never should have been banked upon as a guranteed "cash cow" anyways. I feel worse for the people who just struggled to buy into the market a year or two ago and are now watching as the homes they paid $500,000 for are now worth $400,000. I don't have sympathy for the folks who paid $200,000 for a home a decade ago, saw it escalate to $550,000 when the bubble took off, and are now "upset" it's "only" worth $425,000 in this terrible recession. You're still $225,000 ahead, are you not?
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Originally Posted by Stephen 81
How about an abundance of college-educated gay people and dozens of good Korean and Vietnamese restaurants?
Don't get me wrong, I like Pittsburgh, but it's not a terribly popular destination for LGBT folk, immigrants, or non-Pennsylvanians with college degrees. It does, however, have a lot of very affordable row houses in middle-class neighborhoods. Based on all the Penn State and Steelers stickers you see on cars here, I think the row houses' previous owners have all moved to the DC area.
All of PA is like this though. We're 46 out of 50 states for population growth, we're the second-"grayest" state, and are the WORST at retaining college graduates. PA is becoming a state dominated by the uneducated and the elderly. Nevertheless the people would give you the shirt off their backs if you needed it, the homes have charm, history abounds (no calling half-vacant 1960s-era dumps like Lake Anne Plaza in Reston a "historic district"), traffic is less congested, etc., etc. A part of me is really regretting my move now.
I just wish someone could help "sell" me on what makes NoVA an "amazing" and "special" place again on nights like tonight when I'm becoming so depressed. Reston looks like "Anywhere U.S.A." Ditto much of the rest of NoVA. I can drive 35 minutes into DC or 35 minutes out to the wine country to experience stuff I love, but in between what is there that justifies the exorbitant housing prices? I'd be fine with paying $500,000 for a home if the area was downright amazing (NYC, California Coast, Puget Sound), but I can't justify paying that much here just to say "I'm sorta near stuff when traffic's not too bad."
I bought my first house at 25, I was making $25k a year and my house payment was $500 a month.
Unfortunately though that has since escalated exponentially. I'm making less than twice what you were making and am paying more than twice your mortgage payment on rent for a 1-BR apartment. I just don't understand why DC's employers haven't given raises over the years to help keep pace with the rise in the cost-of-living so that today's 20-somethings aren't worse off financially than the prior generation's 20-somethings? I suppose the general logic from employers is that the prior generation's 20-somethings are now the relatively affluent parents of today's 20-somethings, who are helping them out tremendously financially, so they can justify giving people $40,000 starting salaries in an area where it really takes $50,000-$55,000 to live comfortably.
I just wish someone could help "sell" me on what makes NoVA an "amazing" and "special" place again on nights like tonight when I'm becoming so depressed. Reston looks like "Anywhere U.S.A." Ditto much of the rest of NoVA. I can drive 35 minutes into DC or 35 minutes out to the wine country to experience stuff I love, but in between what is there that justifies the exorbitant housing prices? I'd be fine with paying $500,000 for a home if the area was downright amazing (NYC, California Coast, Puget Sound), but I can't justify paying that much here just to say "I'm sorta near stuff when traffic's not too bad."
NoVA is about as amazing and special as New Jersey. It's existence is mostly due to its close proximity to Washington, D.C., just as much development in NJ is related to its proximity to NY and Phil.
a) If you want NY style living, you need to move to Washington. If you want New Jersey style living, stay in NoVA.
b) Good luck finding a single family home in NYC for $500k
c) Have you ever been to California? It's a lot of things, but walkable is not one of them. It is perhaps the most car-dependent state in the country.
(Sigh!) Now I just did some cyber-house-shopping in Pittsburgh and found beautiful older homes for a fraction of my current rent payment in this suburban wasteland!
$78,500: Baldwin Boro, PA, 15227 - MLS ID#766454 - Single Family Home real estate - REALTOR.com® (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/Baldwin-Boro_PA_15227_1107697163# - broken link)
$78,500: Brentwood, PA, 15227 - MLS ID#782128 - Single Family Home real estate - REALTOR.com® (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/Brentwood_PA_15227_1110524472 - broken link)
$79,000: Beechview, PA, 15216 - MLS ID#754445 - Single Family Home real estate - REALTOR.com® (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/Beechview_PA_15216_1104869626 - broken link)
$79,000: Central North Side, PA, 15212 - MLS ID#758941 - Single Family Home real estate - REALTOR.com® (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/Central-North-Side_PA_15212_1106039471 - broken link)
$79,900: Etna, PA, 15223 - MLS ID#765836 - Single Family Home real estate - REALTOR.com® (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/Etna_PA_15223_1107580683 - broken link)
$79,900: Millvale, PA, 15209 - MLS ID#776326 - Single Family Home real estate - REALTOR.com® (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/Millvale_PA_15209_1109473497 - broken link)
$79,900: Bellevue, PA, 15202 - MLS ID#751200 - Single Family Home real estate - REALTOR.com® (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/Bellevue_PA_15202_1104166536 - broken link) (IN LOVE!!! Just wish it was a lot smaller!)
When I see how far your money stretches in other areas and then compare that to what I get in Reston for much more money I just shake my head in disbelief. I just don't get it. Pittsburgh's a gorgeous city with history on every block, and you can get a beautiful home there for under $100,000. I'm earning $42,000 and am POOR living in Reston, which is suburbia on steroids. It's nights like tonight where I'm really regretting my decision to move here because I just don't see how the quality-of-life here is THIS much higher to justify paying six times as much for housing.
So why didn't you get a job in PA? Do you think you would make the same money in Pittsburg? If so, how foolish of you to have moved to Reston when you would have been so much happier, and wealthier, in PA.
Unfortunately though that has since escalated exponentially. I'm making less than twice what you were making and am paying more than twice your mortgage payment on rent for a 1-BR apartment. I just don't understand why DC's employers haven't given raises over the years to help keep pace with the rise in the cost-of-living so that today's 20-somethings aren't worse off financially than the prior generation's 20-somethings? I suppose the general logic from employers is that the prior generation's 20-somethings are now the relatively affluent parents of today's 20-somethings, who are helping them out tremendously financially, so they can justify giving people $40,000 starting salaries in an area where it really takes $50,000-$55,000 to live comfortably.
HUH? What single, 25 year old, EVER bought a house in a previous generation? I know I didn't and no one I knew was able to buy a house at that age. Nor were our parents or grandparents. After college, everyone lived in group houses! No one could afford their own houses until they were married, and usually over 30 at that.
You should have majored in engineering. That's about the only field where new college graduates have starting salaries over $50,000. Or you could become a teacher. They begin at $45,000 and have off 11 weeks in the summer where you could get a second job, and end up making well over $50,000.
Are you saying that you aren't living comfortably? You have your own apartment, don't even need a roommate! At what, 24 years old?
You sound like a spoiled whiner, expecting to own a SFH when you are still in your 20's. Do a poll here and asked how many people here bought single family homes as single people in their 20's. I dare ya.
Unfortunately though that has since escalated exponentially. I'm making less than twice what you were making and am paying more than twice your mortgage payment on rent for a 1-BR apartment. I just don't understand why DC's employers haven't given raises over the years to help keep pace with the rise in the cost-of-living so that today's 20-somethings aren't worse off financially than the prior generation's 20-somethings? I suppose the general logic from employers is that the prior generation's 20-somethings are now the relatively affluent parents of today's 20-somethings, who are helping them out tremendously financially, so they can justify giving people $40,000 starting salaries in an area where it really takes $50,000-$55,000 to live comfortably.
Did you not take ANY econ courses in college? What part of supply and demand do you NOT understand? Contrary to what you might think, more people want to live in the DC area than in Pittsburgh. That drives up the demand for housing. Throw in all the zoning/smart growth laws that you adore, and viola, less housing. More demand, less supply, higher prices.
Thanks for the encouragement. Unfortunately though I couldn't care less about how large or impressive the home was. I am more concentrated on wanting to live in a shack of a home in an "in-town" location (i.e. walkable business district, parks/churches in the neighborhood, sidewalks, etc.) That's very difficult to find in NoVA for under $400,000, so if you're single and are not an attorney, physician, etc. then forget about it. As far as the family is concerned I'd never hit them up for cash anyways. I'm fiercely financially indepedent and feel badly that I NEED them to pay a bill or two of mine every month because my budget just can't balance otherwise. My parents are in their mid-50s, and I want them to bank all they can NOW to help them have a nice retirement.
I know that you want to live in a house next door to the white house or smack dab in the middle of the mall but the incomes in this region are too high and there are nearly 5 million people in the entire metro area. We all want to live 1 min from work, in the nicest neighborhoods, with good schools, and walkable to museums, metro, etc but not everyone can afford everything here. The fact of the matter is that you have to make a trade off. You can have close in and cheaper if you rent a single room apartment or a room in a group house (look at craigslist for these). You can have a townhouse for cheap in some areas of PWC and PGC but you may not like the neighborhood. You can get a house if you move further out for a reasonable price. Heck, if your limit is 400k, you should be able to find a house in Montgomery County Maryland. They have some decent areas there. If you don't care about size or type of house, look at condos for sale along rockville pike. That's a decent area and I know a bunch of those buildings are probably desperate about now.
What I'm trying to say is that you can't get everything you want unless you're rich. This isn't the middle of no-where with a bunch of poor farmers. Tons of government and government contractors, lawyers and doctors, etc.
Scran- What about Baltimore City? I'm not trying to be funny, I just wanted to throw it out there. It is a totally walkable, hip place and cheap by DC standards. There is a train that heads to DC and the commute to DC (I've heard) really isn't that bad. Just a thought...
1. Why do you assume you'll never find a life partner here? You're only 22, and you've only been here six weeks or so. I think you're giving up on the local LGBT community a bit prematurely. Now, granted, I'm in my 30s, married, and straight. FWIW, however, I grew up here and only one of my many longtime LGBT friends and acquaintances is still single. They've all found partners here with whom to share their lives. It stands to reason that you can, too.
2. Figure out what you really want and work toward it. If a SFH in Arlington is your ultimate goal, then you can get there, but you're not currently on the right path. You need to either buy a starter home and recognize that in several years, you can sell it and use the equity to help you purchase something that comes closer to meeting your ultimate goal; or you need to get one or more roommates while you're still renting. Living in an apartment with no roommates until you have your downpayment all saved up isn't ever going to get you there. At least, it's not going to get you into a SFH in Arlington.
3. I know very few people who've purchased a home while they were in their 20s and single. And that's not just here. I lived in Austin, Texas, for 13 years, where the cost of living is much lower than it is here, and none of my friends there were able to buy homes at your life stage either. Well, okay, a couple of them did, but they bought icky condos in icky neighborhoods -- that starter home thing again. Everybody else rented, usually with roomies, until they were married; then lived in a rental (either apartment or SFH) for the first few years of their marriage; then bought their first home. Even among the marrieds, most didn't purchase homes until they were around 30.
4. You've asked many times on these forums what it is about DC that those of us who love it, love so much. Speaking just for me, this is home. I love my home. I grew up here. I have a lot invested here emotionally. I'm used to the lifestyle. It's good for me. Those things are largely intangible, but that's what I can tell you. In more practical terms, my husband is the primary breadwinner in our family, and he literally cannot do his job anywhere but Washington, DC. His job doesn't exist anywhere else. Seriously. There are lots of people here for whom that's true. Not the majority, I'm sure, but lots of people nonetheless. DC's kinda unique in that way.
5. Joy is where you find it. And finding it is up to you. I don't know you IRL, but just from what you've openly shared on these forums, it seems to me that you have a lot about which to be joyful. You're young, you're healthy, you have a job, you have an education, you have a family, you live in a nice area, you have opportunities ahead of you and potential to spare. I know you have a life outside the forums, of course. If there's something big in your life that's sapping your joy, then work on getting rid of whatever that is. Beyond that, drop what you can't change and live joyfully within the parameters that exist. You can't change the housing market here. Find a way to live with it that works for you. And if you find that the cost of living here is something you truly can't live with, then move to a place where you can be joyful. This isn't a suggestion to "get out"; just a reminder that, while I think we all wish you every happiness here, no place -- not even my beloved DC -- is right for everyone.
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Some of you may recall a few weeks ago I posted a thread asking about the most affordable store(s) to shop at for grocery items, and some replied that I'd have to drive to a few places to get the best deals. I can afford $50/week for food, so I'm grateful that won't be necessary as there's a Giant about 1.5 miles from my apartment. Gas is about the same right now, and utilities probably are a bit higher---the older infrastructure means the utility companies there have to hire more maintenance workers, which equates to hire upkeep costs that are passed on to the consumer. 
Unfortunately though I couldn't care less about how large or impressive the home was. I am more concentrated on wanting to live in a shack of a home in an "in-town" location (i.e. walkable business district, parks/churches in the neighborhood, sidewalks, etc.) That's very difficult to find in NoVA for under $400,000, so if you're single and are not an attorney, physician, etc. then forget about it. As far as the family is concerned I'd never hit them up for cash anyways. I'm fiercely financially indepedent and feel badly that I NEED them to pay a bill or two of mine every month because my budget just can't balance otherwise. My parents are in their mid-50s, and I want them to bank all they can NOW to help them have a nice retirement. 
