A meaningless Statistic (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Akron: luxury, calculator, suites)

[Cleveland_Collector]

How do you arrive at that? There is a 3-4 county wide swath where the population density between the two areas is at or above the national average. That same qualification is less than 2 counties wide between Dayton and Cincy. Also, true rural discontinuity is considered when the population density is below 50 people per square mile.

Even when comparing the contiguous population, there is no real disconnect between the 2 areas. There is simply a slight decline of population density along a very wide area which is still well above the national average.

[unusualfire]

^The Census says so. Just let it play out to see where it leads in a year or so. Honestly it sounds like you are upset that the Cleveland area is falling behind.

[BelieveInCleve]

If you count it that way, than yes technically the Cincinnati metro is now more populated than the Cleveland metro. However, there are many things to consider.

The Cleveland metro gets robbed of a lot of land area and people by the census, almost more than any other MSA, and probably every similar sized area.

The Cleveland metro only includes 5 counties with 2,004 sq miles.
The Cincinnati metro includes 15 counties and 4,465 sq miles.

That alone shows you that there's something wrong here, especially as far as comparing the areas. About that much land area around Cleveland (4,580 sq miles) would include both the Akron metro (included in the CSA) and the Canton metro, with the total population being 3.3 million people, 1.2 million more than the Cincinnati metro. Also, Cincinnati seems to be only in the middle of the pack as far as land area, look at the St. Louis metro which includes around 9,000 sq miles with 2.9 million people, that much land area around Cleveland would be nearly all of NE Ohio with over 4.4 million people. BTW, depending on how many counties you include, Southwest Ohio is up to nearly 3 million people while NE Ohio is over 4.6 million people, so NE Ohio is over 50% larger than SW Ohio with just a little more land area.

[unusualfire]

Cleveland is not centered where Akron is located. It's centered along a lake. It's growth can not go north. Cincinnati is centered around 3 states and can grow any direction. That's why Cleveland is more dense than Cincinnati.

[BelieveInCleve]

I talked a lot about the possible Cleveland/Akron/Canton or possible Cleveland/Akron/Canton/Youngstown MSA or CSA in my thread: Possible Cleveland/Akron/Canton Metro/MSA?

As compared to possible Cincinnati/Dayton/Springfield CSA:

Cleveland/Akron/Canton MSA or CSA
Land Area: 4,580 sq miles
Population: 3,299,993
Pop. Density: 721/per sq mile
vs.
Cincinnati/Dayton/Springfield CSA
Land Area: 8,014 sq miles
Population: 3,281,215
Pop. Density: 409/per sq mile

or
Cleveland/Akron/Canton/Youngstown CSA
Land Area: 6,815 sq miles
Population: 3,970,678
Pop. Density: 583/per sq mile

If you include Dayton/Springfield in the Cincinnati CSA than you should undoubtedly include Youngstown/Warren and Canton with Cleveland, but as you can see even with all of that and much more population Cleveland would still include much less land area than the Cincinnati CSA and be much more dense. Any argument against how connected and the distance between Cleveland-Youngstown can be countered with the fact that Springfield is 80+ miles away from Cincinnati, yet it would be included with Cincinnati. Springfield is actually much closer to Columbus (45 miles) and much more connected to Columbus than Cincinnati.

Another thing to consider is the relation and sphere of influence. Dayton has always been considered a separate large area from Cincinnati, it's also 2 counties away while Akron is the bordering county to Cleveland. The only area between Cleveland and Akron that hasn't been developed for many years is the National Park (not allowed to be built on), other than that the continuous development reaches all the way from the lake (Cleveland-Vermillion-Painesville) to south of Canton. Cincinnati and Dayton are only connected by a thin stretch of suburban development between the Miami River and 75 helped by smaller cities like Hamilton and Middletown. Honestly, I would say that Youngstown/Warren is even more connected to Cleveland than Dayton and definitely Springfield are to Cincinnati, and Canton is undoubtedly more connected to Cleveland.

Some Links/Maps:
The Urbanophile » Blog Archive » Replay: Spheres of Influence
Clevelands sphere of Influence spans nearly all of NE Ohio, while Dayton is considered very separate from Cincinnati (remember, this map is dictated by people who actually live in these areas): http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2450/...77211f6c_o.png
Actual Economic Area Designation; Cleveland-Canton-Youngstown-Sandusky along with nearly all of NE Ohio is considered in one economic area at 4.6 million population, while Cincinnati is completely separate from Dayton and at 2.35 million people: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3483/...6b9ea893_o.gif
Cleveland-Canton-Youngstown shown as one cluster in density map:
http://threatsummary.forestthreats.o...ity_Map_38.gif

[tribecavsbrowns]

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

Warren and Youngstown are as connected to Cleveland as Dayton is to Cincinnati. Youngstown is less than 60 miles away from Cleveland. Warren is even closer.

I see you measured that not downtown-to-downtown, which is about 75 miles, but the shortest distance between points in the city limits. Yes, from Lee Road and I-480 to Meridian Road and I-680, it's a little less than 60 miles. I'm sure that's a nice, pleasant commute for the legions of folks who live off of Meridian and work at B&M BBQ on Lee.

Let's do the same thing with Dayton and Cincinnati, find the shortest distance possible. I-75 and Galbraith to Broadway and Nicholas. 41 miles. Ouch. Even less than Cleveland to Canton.

Downtown Cincinnati is 54 miles from downtown Dayton, so 28 percent closer than Cleveland and Youngstown. That's actually better (for Cleveland) than the 32 percent you get with the cartographic chicanery you used, so let's use that. As a bonus, it measures the distance of a drive people actually make (all seven of them, which apparently all work with you).

[insightofitall]

Hmmmn....apparently the title of this thread is wrong, because obviously it's not a "meaningless" statistic if it's going to invoke such a drawn out debate.

[tribecavsbrowns]

Originally Posted by BelieveInCleve

Dayton has always been considered a separate large area from Cincinnati, it's also 2 counties away while Akron is the bordering county to Cleveland.

And Akron hasn't? Are you saying the Rubber City should be called the Rubber Suburb?

[tribecavsbrowns]

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

Actually, the separation between Dayton and Cincy is not altogether different. It's a patchwork of civilization and more rural areas just like it is between Cleveland and Youngstown/Warren. US Rt. 422 is a 4 lane freeway that connects the two areas directly as does I-76 and I-80. Also, plenty of people commute between Youngstown and Cleveland for work on a daily basis. I know, as I work with several of them.

Cleveland essentially embodies NE Ohio. Much more so than Cincinnati does SW Ohio.

Yes, and for the 25-30 mile stretch of that road between Bainbridge and Warren there is absolutely NOTHING. I know because my family has roots in Warren. You're not fooling anyone here.

[BelieveInCleve]

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

I see you measured that not downtown-to-downtown, which is about 75 miles, but the shortest distance between points in the city limits. Yes, from Lee Road and I-480 to Meridian Road and I-680, it's a little less than 60 miles. I'm sure that's a nice, pleasant commute for the legions of folks who live off of Meridian and work at B&M BBQ on Lee.

Let's do the same thing with Dayton and Cincinnati, find the shortest distance possible. I-75 and Galbraith to Broadway and Nicholas. 41 miles. Ouch. Even less than Cleveland to Canton.

Downtown Cincinnati is 54 miles from downtown Dayton, so 28 percent closer than Cleveland and Youngstown. That's actually better (for Cleveland) than the 32 percent you get with the cartographic chicanery you used, so let's use that. As a bonus, it measures the distance of a drive people actually make (all seven of them, which apparently all work with you).

Downtown Cleveland and Downtown Youngstown are 61 miles apart, this is the literal distance though not the driving distance (which isn't straight there). Measuring this way puts DT Dayton and DT Cincinnati 49 miles apart, Springfield would be in the Cincinnati CSA still at 68 miles from DT Cincinnati. DT Canton is 51 miles from DT Cleveland, DT Akron is 30 miles from DT Cleveland.

And I know plenty of people who live in or near Youngstown/Warren who work in Cleveland/Cuyahoga County... and people in or near Sandusky, Canton, Ashtabula, even Mansfield who work in Cleveland. It's funny how you see this ridiculous when I heard a few people on here from Cincinnati who said they know plenty of people who lived in Indianapolis (city) who commuted to Cincinnati to work everyday (2 hours) lol. Not saying I don't believe them as even I know people who live on the coast in Jersey who take the train nearly 2 hours to work in Manhattan 5 days a week.

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

And Akron hasn't? Are you saying the Rubber City should be called the Rubber Suburb?

It doesn't have to be a suburb, the 2 cities are simply too close and too connected/intertwined to be different areas completely, they are the same area and have been for a long time. Maybe not the same city limits or county, but the same area nonetheless. Check the links that I included in the last post.

Remember in 1974 when the Cleveland Cavaliers played in Richfield? Richfield is in Summit County, 5 miles closer to DT Akron than DT Cleveland, yet they were still called the Cleveland Cavaliers. That was 37 years ago.

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

Yes, and for the 25-30 mile stretch of that road between Bainbridge and Warren there is absolutely NOTHING. I know because my family has roots in Warren. You're not fooling anyone here.

I agree with you there isn't much between Bainbridge and Warren, but believe it or not (you are probably too accustomed to NE Ohio) that is actually moderate to high density, for a rural area of course. This Ohio density map proves that: http://www2.census.gov/geo/maps/spec...2K_Profile.pdf
As you can see, there are really no areas in NE Ohio (especially between Cleveland-Youngstown) that are very low density or completely void of life, unlike many areas of west, south, or southeast Ohio.