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There are a few schools in Sweden that are gender neutral, but I'm sure there are a few schools in the States that are too, or follow other 'extreme' beliefs. Those schools that are gender neutral were gender neutral before this current media frenzy. Most schools in Sweden still use gendered pronouns. The proposed change is just about adding the new pronoun to the dictionary. That's the current debate...acknowledging that we as a group exist.
And even then...
Raising children gender neutral doesn't have to be about denying them or anyone else a gender. It can be about letting them have the choice. I'll say it again....sex and gender are not the same things. Gender is cultural, sex is biological. It's easier to go from gender neutral to boy or girl vs. boy or girl to gender neutral because of the associations involved. It's like going from a white base coat to blue or pink vs. trying to paint over something. What age is best for that I can't answer. Maybe it's a thing that just happens gradually. I just like the idea of letting those whose gender doesn't match their sex know that another options exists.
I do think there is a place for gender and I know it forms a very strong part of many peoples' identities- even if they don't realize it. But I think there's a place for gender neutral people and politics too. And I think one of the first steps to making that place is just acknowledging we're around. And one of the first steps to doing that is language.
Fine then, if a certain group wants to come up with a term for them selves then have at it but don't go making one term for EVERYONE.
I am woman, I want to be called a woman, I don't want some one sized fits all term like hen.
I think it's great if gender neutral people have their own term but don't go trying to force it on everyone else.
If someone wants to be called a male term they should be, same for female.
If someone wants to associate themselves with homosexual, asexual, gender neutral then GREAT, more power to you, if it keeps your boat floating and sailing at full speed lovely but lets not make EVERYONE use gender neutral terms, lets let people use whatever term they want.
So you don't like terms including student(s), classmate(s), child(ren), coworker(s), etc? Just pointing out how silly it is to be against a one size fits all term like "hen" but perfectly cool with other terms.
So you don't like terms including student(s), classmate(s), child(ren), coworker(s), etc? Just pointing out how silly it is to be against a one size fits all term like "hen" but perfectly cool with other terms.
Really?
A student is a student, its a title in its self.
Hen, is a blanket term for ALL genders.
A student is just one thing.
I don't know how to put my thought into words, right now.
So you don't like terms including student(s), classmate(s), child(ren), coworker(s), etc? Just pointing out how silly it is to be against a one size fits all term like "hen" but perfectly cool with other terms.
I think using the word "hen" or even "buddies" when you mean "students" is even more silly. Simply put, we use those words in bold because that's what the people we're referring to are! But thank you, you've actually solved the dilemma to what should be everyone's liking:
Call the students "students", and/or if they're kids "kids". And there you have it. Two terms that are both accurate and gender neutral. And you wouldn't have to change all that much; just tell the teachers to avoid saying "Okay, boys and girls..." and instead say, "Okay, class" or "Okay, kids", etc.
I think using the word "hen" or even "buddies" when you mean "students" is even more silly. Simply put, we use those words in bold because that's what the people we're referring to are! But thank you, you've actually solved the dilemma to what should be everyone's liking:
Call the students "students", and/or if they're kids "kids". And there you have it. Two terms that are both accurate and gender neutral. And you wouldn't have to change all that much; just tell the teachers to avoid saying "Okay, boys and girls..." and instead say, "Okay, class" or "Okay, kids", etc.
ok you were able to better put it than I was.
Calling them "hens" a sounds like old mcdonald taught third grade e i e i o.....
Anyways...calling them hens takes away from the boys and girls who want to be considered boys and girls. "Students" doesn't take away from ones gender. "Hen" is an intentional name because people want to make all genders feel included but it just takes away from the other genders who want to be considered male or female. Call them students or class because that's what they are.
Ok, here is another example. English has gender neutral pronouns for multiple people. I am talking about "they" and "them." Many other languages specify the gender of the group. In Spanish it is ellos or ellas. English doesn't distinguish between genders. Do you feel that a group of girlfriends is having their very gender stripped from them because they are referenced using gender neutral pronouns? Gimme a break.
Some languages don't even have gender specific pronouns. Somehow they seem to get along just fine.
ok you were able to better put it than I was.
Calling them "hens" a sounds like old mcdonald taught third grade e i e i o.....
Anyways...calling them hens takes away from the boys and girls who want to be considered boys and girls. "Students" doesn't take away from ones gender. "Hen" is an intentional name because people want to make all genders feel included but it just takes away from the other genders who want to be considered male or female. Call them students or class because that's what they are.
There are some basic misunderstandings going on here.
First, hen is a Swedish term. It isn't connected to birds of any sort because it isn't the English language.
Also, you actually would not use hen in this case. Hen is a personal pronoun, like he or she. You wouldn't stand before a group and say Good morning, hes and shes", right? Buddies is just what they've settled on for students...or they just call the kids by their first names. Students would work just as well.
What hen would be used for is either talking a person who prefers that pronoun or talking about a person whose gender you actually don't know instead of making an assumption. So you might actually use hen in reference to an individual student, but not a group.
There's confusion here between gender neutral classrooms and adding a gender neutral term to the dictionary. Two different issues. Sweden has been experimenting with gender neutral classrooms and other things for quite some time now. The inclusion of Hen in the dictionary isn't about what to call kids in a class.
JJCat, I think both the OP and I agree to putting a gender neutral pronoun in the dictionary, but not automatically referring to a boy in a classroom who is clearly a boy as anything but.
Quote:
Originally Posted by passwithoutatrace
Ok, here is another example. English has gender neutral pronouns for multiple people. I am talking about "they" and "them." Many other languages specify the gender of the group. In Spanish it is ellos or ellas. English doesn't distinguish between genders. Do you feel that a group of girlfriends is having their very gender stripped from them because they are referenced using gender neutral pronouns? Gimme a break.
It isn't the intermittent presence of a gender neutral noun or pronoun that can subtract from a child's awareness of the freedom to choose a gender (without social judgment). It's the act of actually taking gender specific nouns and pronouns away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by passwithoutatrace
Some languages don't even have gender specific pronouns. Somehow they seem to get along just fine.
How so? No sexual discrimination? Because that's the problem we're looking to solve. And on top of that, better to compare different people within a culture than to compare different cultures (too many variables are different to blame just one). Practically every American has uttered and/or heard the words "him" and "her". Yet, where else are these ideas of letting girls play football or guys wearing dresses coming from? So, short answer: "I DO use gender specific pronouns, every day. And I get along just fine, too."
There are some basic misunderstandings going on here.
First, hen is a Swedish term. It isn't connected to birds of any sort because it isn't the English language.
Also, you actually would not use hen in this case. Hen is a personal pronoun, like he or she. You wouldn't stand before a group and say Good morning, hes and shes", right? Buddies is just what they've settled on for students...or they just call the kids by their first names. Students would work just as well.
What hen would be used for is either talking a person who prefers that pronoun or talking about a person whose gender you actually don't know instead of making an assumption. So you might actually use hen in reference to an individual student, but not a group.
There's confusion here between gender neutral classrooms and adding a gender neutral term to the dictionary. Two different issues. Sweden has been experimenting with gender neutral classrooms and other things for quite some time now. The inclusion of Hen in the dictionary isn't about what to call kids in a class.
What I am not seeing is what is problematic or worrisome about the change. I am not seeing any compelling argument against. There ought to be a tally somewhere when a person's opinion is changed by a forum discussion. I would bet it doesn't happen very often!
Ok, here is another example. English has gender neutral pronouns for multiple people. I am talking about "they" and "them." Many other languages specify the gender of the group. In Spanish it is ellos or ellas. English doesn't distinguish between genders. Do you feel that a group of girlfriends is having their very gender stripped from them because they are referenced using gender neutral pronouns? Gimme a break.
Some languages don't even have gender specific pronouns. Somehow they seem to get along just fine.
You are kind of comparing apples and oranges with this example. Because comparing ellos and ellas to them and they isnt entirely accurate. In english we have men and women which is the english pronoun for multiple people which would serve as the equivalent of ellos and ellas. The gender specific version of them or they is those men. Or those women. Its just not the same. We also already have a gender specific and non gender specific way to refer to men and women.
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