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Honestly, I'd let him join and not say anything about the pledge right now. He's 5 and he does not care. Kids don't understand the pledge of allegiance, either, but they still parrot it. When they're older, they learn what it means. When the time comes for him to have to look into the matter of faith (it looks like that happens in the 2nd grade in Cub Scouts), you can bring it up then if it hasn't already come up. He will be two years older and will have had two years of hearing other children mention church and God at times. I don't know where you're located, but in many areas, it's impossible to make it to the 2nd grade without hearing about God from classmates.
I see that your principles are important to you but I really think you're overthinking it in this case.
I understand how you feel. My sons did cub scouts, and I thought that the oath was creepy - it felt like Hitler youth to me. Especially, the "Follow the Good Leader" mantra creeped me out.
Even though we are agnostics, we raised our kids in a religion, but emphasized the cultural aspects of it more than the god aspects of it.
The fact is, it would be a pity to deny him the group pleasure of Cub Scouts just because of this. Are you going to make a stink if they celebrate any religious (or pagan) holidays at school?
Let the kid join Cub Scouts, and just gloss over the god issue, the same way that you do with the Pledge of Allegiance.
If you project into the future and think of reminiscing with your child and he says, "I never got a chance to be in Cub Scouts," and you say, "It was because we are atheists and I didn't want you to have to make vows that go against our beliefs" and he says "Wow, mom - I just wanted to play and have fun with my friends."
I think you are projecting your values onto your child.
You may have very deep reasons for your values and beliefs which your child may not share.
I don't really want him to embrace my personally philosophy, I want him to learn to think for himself. And it isn't just me who is an atheist, as I stated, he is an atheist. There is no way that at 5 years old his brain is mature enough to evaluate a religious argument for a god. Once he is older he can look at these arguments on his own. Unfortunately affirming the BSA oath predisposes him to belief.
You are right, it could potentially be a hard conversation. I am realizing it will be necessary. Of course he is 5 so the excitement over Scouts could be forgotten by next week
I don’t see how it predisposes him to belief. The oath says he swears to do his duty to god; it doesn’t make him swear he believes in god. If you believe god is nonexistent, you can swear it all day long there with a clear conscience. Doing one’s duty to a nonexistent entity consists of doing nothing. You may as well swear to do your duty to bigfoot, santa claus, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy, or the great pumpkin.
As an atheist myself, I agree that you should not let him join or support that organization in anyway. I would recommend you start having conversations with your son about religion to help inoculate him against the brainwashing and pressure he will encounter in life.
I let my son Join the scouts and he enjoyed it for a couple of years and then felt uncomfortable when a new scout leader took over and was overt in his religious condemnation of those who didn’t seem pious enough or their parents who didn’t go to church. We were not fans of forcing our children to believe or not believe and so we were happy our son didn’t appreciate someone trying to indoctrinate him. He is an adult now and has chosen his own path and I respect that his path is the right one for him.
If you have such a rigid objection to the scouts,then explore different groups that offer the same or similar activities. Also you are presuming your son will feel left out but maybe the other kids won’t join the scouts for a variety of reasons. I think you may be overthinking this and worrying too much at this point.
See, in my mind there is no conversation to have with him. At this point he has no concept of god or any idea of what religion is because, as I said, it simply isn't a topic in our house. I don't expect that my son will not believe in god, I know that at this point he does not. If he chooses to when he is older that is his decision.
Yes, if he really pushes to join I will have to explain this to him. The problem is that he is so young I don't think he will be able to understand what the issue is. Any suggestions on how to put it in five year old terms? Simply say that the organization requires belief in things we don't believe in?
It actually makes me a little sad that he "has no concept of God or any idea of what religion is." It is fine to be an atheist. Absolutely no problem with that. But teaching about different religions is very much a part of teaching about different cultures. And by teaching children early about different cultures, they are more likely to be tolerant of and understand people that are different from them. How do you handle Christmas? Surely that's come up. What about Hanukkah? Do you teach him that different people celebrate different holidays? How do you do that without mentioning religion? Do you teach him about people from other parts of the world? How do you address that? If you are not teaching him those things, there is a whole world of other, wonderful cultures that he's missing out on. There's no way he's going to go through school or life without learning that people in Israel are mostly Jewish or that the European settlers in the US were seeking religious freedoms. Guess what? He's going to learn those things this year. My kids' kindergarten did a big Holidays Around the World. How will you address that?
It actually makes me a little sad that he "has no concept of God or any idea of what religion is." It is fine to be an atheist. Absolutely no problem with that. But teaching about different religions is very much a part of teaching about different cultures. And by teaching children early about different cultures, they are more likely to be tolerant of and understand people that are different from them. How do you handle Christmas? Surely that's come up. What about Hanukkah? Do you teach him that different people celebrate different holidays? How do you do that without mentioning religion? Do you teach him about people from other parts of the world? How do you address that? If you are not teaching him those things, there is a whole world of other, wonderful cultures that he's missing out on. There's no way he's going to go through school or life without learning that people in Israel are mostly Jewish or that the European settlers in the US were seeking religious freedoms. Guess what? He's going to learn those things this year. My kids' kindergarten did a big Holidays Around the World. How will you address that?
We actually celebrate Christmas but don’t include any of the religious aspects. We put up a big old tree, lights on the house etc. None of those have anything to do with religion and are just fun traditions for us.
There are not as many possibilities for these since Boy Scouts has been the primary organization for this, but there are chapters out there and if not, consider starting your own in your city. I bet you would have plenty of boys who would like to join.
Have you spoken to the leader of this particular Pack to see what his/her take on it is? I understand that you don't want your son to lie, but if the leader is okay with it and won't make a big deal of it, your son can sit out the oath. I know that it's a Scout rule, but if the leader will let it slide, who cares?
It may become a bigger issue later, but you can address it more in depth then and help your son make a decision.
ETA: My husband is an atheist and my daughter is agnostic. All the way through school when there would be functions where we would recite the pledge, instead of saying, "under God" my husband always said, "underwear." Everyone survived.
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