Warehouse problem (Lancaster, Chester, Hazleton: how much, houses, construction)

[rowhomecity]

Pennsylvania is known as the Keystone state for several reasons. Historically it was considered the economic center of all the colonies. It was the NYC of the colonies. More recently its location has considered it to be in the middle of the East Coast.

For this reason Warehouses are being developed and imo ruining the quality of life of the state.

Primary Warehouse locations:

1) Cumberland County, Pennsylvania along 81
Truck traffic is out of control. Pollution is also out of control in terms of air quality. Yes measured by science Cumberland County ranks as bad as the Los Angeles Metro. Farms are being destroyed left and right. These warehouses are being built on two lane country roads that cannot handle the traffic.

2) Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania
Just as bad.

The amount of auto accidents and deaths from tractor trailers is absolutely out of control.

What do other fellow Pennsylvanians think? These warehouse jobs pay very low. Usually $12/hour and maybe $15/hour for overnight.

And the fact is most of the warehouse jobs will be automated. So the taxpayers are paying for a decay of our infrastructure without any real economic benefit.

Thoughts? Opinions?

[blazerj]

Originally Posted by rowhomecity

Pennsylvania is known as the Keystone state for several reasons. Historically it was considered the economic center of all the colonies. It was the NYC of the colonies. More recently its location has considered it to be in the middle of the East Coast.

For this reason Warehouses are being developed and imo ruining the quality of life of the state.

Primary Warehouse locations:

1) Cumberland County, Pennsylvania along 81
Truck traffic is out of control. Pollution is also out of control in terms of air quality. Yes measured by science Cumberland County ranks as bad as the Los Angeles Metro. Farms are being destroyed left and right. These warehouses are being built on two lane country roads that cannot handle the traffic.

2) Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania
Just as bad.

The amount of auto accidents and deaths from tractor trailers is absolutely out of control.

What do other fellow Pennsylvanians think? These warehouse jobs pay very low. Usually $12/hour and maybe $15/hour for overnight.

And the fact is most of the warehouse jobs will be automated. So the taxpayers are paying for a decay of our infrastructure without any real economic benefit.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Agree 100% and sooner or later, the truck drivers will be automated as well.

[KevinE]

i78, i80 and i81 should be toll roads. Fast Eddie tried to get tolls on i80 but was blocked by the Feds.

[thedirtypirate]

Originally Posted by KevinE

i78, i80 and i81 should be toll roads. Fast Eddie tried to get tolls on i80 but was blocked by the Feds.

That's a pretty interesting idea actually. I wonder if any estimates have ever been done to see how much revenue would increase if they turned them into toll roads.

[wharton]

I worked heavy construction, from the mid-80s in the Lehigh Valley. When the west end started the warehousing boom, it was met with open arms. Two decades later, municipal leaders in other areas of the region were telling developers that they needed to prove a high body count of folks actually working decent jobs, after completion, for a business that did not center on a continuous flow of tractor trailer traffic to the facility. If not, then the proposal was dead. Mass warehousing clusters of mega- facilities, in the eastern half of the state was, and is, a huge mistake. Especially for those government entities that groveled and gave away everything, in the form of tax abatement to "win the prize" of ending up with these net drains on society.

As a small town Lancaster County resident, the project that still stuns me is the absolute stupidity of seeing Urban Outfitters build a million Sq. Ft. Distribution center, on the edge of GAP, right in the heart of Amish farm country. It is located on two lane, grossly outdated and overused, RT 30. I know some of the management there, and they describe the stupidity of it all. First, the place is centrally located in absolute nowhere. This means that getting low skill, low pay workers from urban areas, like Lancaster city, to the west, or all the Chester county population areas to the east, is extremely difficult, and transportation limitations for that demographic, to get them to the facility for several shifts a day, are a nightmare. Second, the road network in a ten mile radius of the place is outdated by 50-70 years, so "just in time" shipping and receiving is a joke. There are continual issues with rigs that are either in wrecks or stuck behind them. The recently was flirting with DOUBLING the size of the facility, but the local taxing authorities had enough, and said they were not bending over again, and giving away a decade of revenue for a company that is hardly an asset to the community.

I challenge the logic of the forward thinking assumption that, at some point automation in trucking and material handling will make these monsters a net loss to the community. My personal take is that they were an overall loss, at the point the first one opened it's doors, decades ago. It's slightly better than operating a landfill that attracts garbage from the entire mid-Atlantic, but not by much.

[bridge12]

This is a serious issue that the Cumberland County government doesn't want to address through proper planning. It's also a symptom of the fragmented system of municipal government in Pennsylvania where every little town and township wants a piece of the pie. Unfortunately, I don't think it's going to get any better any time soon. And PennDOT and the regional MPOs are planning for massive capacity increases to I-81 through the area without any attention to expanding rail capacity.

It's ironic - Cumberland County is one of the fastest growing, most desirable places to live in PA right now. And this threatens all of that.

With the recent leftward shift in county politics, I suppose it's possible at some point down the line environmental concerns will take over. But then you still have the individual townships around Carlisle that will probably still want the warehouse money.

[SteelCityRising]

Luzerne County, PA has also become a distribution epicenter. There are numerous warehouses near Hazleton, PA (near the interchanges of I-80 and I-81) and near Pittston, PA (near the interchanges of I-81 and I-476). Pittston especially has been having a lot of growing pains with a lot of motor vehicle collisions and worsening air quality related to the growth in distribution.

I wouldn't mind as much if these were all family-sustaining jobs, but most of these warehousing jobs, to my knowledge, pay $15/hr. with limited benefits.

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by thedirtypirate

That's a pretty interesting idea actually. I wonder if any estimates have ever been done to see how much revenue would increase if they turned them into toll roads.

Eventually all roads will be toll roads. With the growing popularity of EV's we won't be raising highway building/repair/rebuilding money through fuel taxes. We will probably be taxed periodically based on odometer readings combined with vehicle weight. That's the fairest way I see to tax EV's.

Part of the problem with tolling I-80 would be pushing traffic onto secondary roads. Most highways you see that are toll roads, were built as toll roads to being with (PA turnpike, AC Expressway, GS Parkway) so the choice of some drivers to use secondary "shunpike roads" was organic. If we suddenly put toll booths up on I-80 then we may shock the system of secondary roads to the point where local traffic can't move efficiently.

[bridge12]

Originally Posted by jtab4994

Eventually all roads will be toll roads. With the growing popularity of EV's we won't be raising highway building/repair/rebuilding money through fuel taxes. We will probably be taxed periodically based on odometer readings combined with vehicle weight. That's the fairest way I see to tax EV's.

Part of the problem with tolling I-80 would be pushing traffic onto secondary roads. Most highways you see that are toll roads, were built as toll roads to being with (PA turnpike, AC Expressway, GS Parkway) so the choice of some drivers to use secondary "shunpike roads" was organic. If we suddenly put toll booths up on I-80 then we may shock the system of secondary roads to the point where local traffic can't move efficiently.

I think it's probably overstated how many people will use secondary roads to avoid tolling. Some locals might do that but the vast majority of drivers, especially truckers, are on a time crunch and won't bother.

You can also strategically place tolling booths to avoid that or place them on exit ramps.

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by bridge12

I think it's probably overstated how many people will use secondary roads to avoid tolling. Some locals might do that but the vast majority of drivers, especially truckers, are on a time crunch and won't bother.

You can also strategically place tolling booths to avoid that or place them on exit ramps.

OK if it's so easy, then do it. But check with Ed Rendell first to find out why he backed down.