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It's just a number you pulled out of nowhere. On what basis do you say $5 is fair but $2 is a ripoff? A worker can't survive on either.
It wasn't intended to support an independent lifestyle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF
The fact is that minimum wage was intended to be a living wage. You can deny it all you want but you're not entitled to your own facts.
You're simply wrong. The whole concept of "living wage" is subjective anyway. It's defined very differently depending on expectations. Beyond that, one only needs to look at the purchasing power of the minimum wage to see that the current level of $7.25 is at about at the middle of its historical range....and this doesn't include the many states that have higher minimums.
Fact: The minimum wage of .25 per hour in 1938 is worth about $4.07 in 2012 dollars, so it would be perhaps $4.50 on 2016 dollars.
Fact: The high water mark for minimum wage purchasing power was in 1968, when it was equivalent to $10.56 in 2012 dollars, so maybe $11 in 2016 dollars.
A higher minimum wage will lead to more automation. After all, a computer doesn't cost $15/hr to operate, doesn't call in sick, doesn't need benefits..
You pay $20-$25/hr to a technician to keep the machines running..
But.. Look.. I think that's a good thing.. Not from an "I told you so" and "Be careful what you wish for" standpoint.. But, when people realize that they have to get an education, they can't just half-ass their way through a job because there's 100 people lined up behind them to take their job.. It's motivation.
Yes, a $15/hr minimum wage will raise prices initially.. But, they will then go down as more and more automation takes over. Unemployment will go higher as well, before eventually starting to fall (this will take years and years) as people realize that they have to have an education to have a job.
I'm not overly worried about it, because.. I program and repair the machines.. So.. Until the machines start programming and repairing themselves, my job isn't replaceable.
I'm going to try and hold middle ground in this debate.
I don't favor a $15 an hour minimum wage. I do favor a gradual increase in the minimum wage. I would increase it to $9.50 an hour immediately and probably to $10.50 within a year or so. Further increases would depend on the cost of living and performance of the economy in general.
I think many people don't really understand the minimum wage and they also view in isolation from other labor laws. The real reason the minimum wage law exists is --- that in combination with other labor laws-- it prevents a few employers from being too exploitative of workers. My sixteen year old daughter is earning $9 an hour right now in a part time fast food job. If this is the case, no one can make a rational argument that the minimum wage should not be raised at least that much. Ultimately, wages simply depend on the strength of the economy. If an economy is too weak, raising the minimum wage will accomplish little to nothing. If the economy is stronger, raising the minimum wage will put pressure on "fringe employers" and those who try to exploit workers to not do so. If a an employer runs such a marginal business that he cannot afford to pay his workers the modest minimum wage that I describe, it is not too our advantage that he stay in business.
The concept of laisse faire economics is not valid. Years ago, we determined that there should be some regulation of things like minimum wages, maximum hours, and safe working conditions.
Our labor laws essentially send a message to business. That message is that there are limits beyond which they cannot go in terms of employing workers. That is a positive thing. However, we have to be realistic. Those limits only can be enforced--and will only work--when an economy is healthy and when the regulations that are imposed are realistic.
So, increase the minimum wage, but it do it slowly and gradually and based on improvement in the economy.
Last edited by markg91359; 04-05-2016 at 10:23 AM..
Upcoming elections tend to accelerate greatly increased minimum wage proposals ... pandering to low wage workers to try to 'buy' their votes. The free enterprise system works ... products seek their own sales price and workers rise to their own level of value to a company. Arbitrarily raising the minimum wage by a significant amount will not help anyone!
Small employers will be forced to reduce employees and their hours to part-time work (32-hours), in order to afford the increases without raising their product prices 50-percent ($10-$15), thus, putting themselves out of business. (They are already doing this to avoid the high costs of healthcare for full-time employees).
Current $15 per hour middle income (supervisors, etc) are not going to suddenly say, "Oh well, now the people I supervise are making the same amount I am ... I guess that's fair." Therefore, we're not just talking about raising the minimum wage, but, an upward domino effect.
Workers are not going to increase their output or value to the company by 50%, therefore, the wage is going to increase costs, without increasing productivity or output. Now there's a 'model for disaster' for companies not generating 50-percent in excess profit they don't know how to spend.
Arbitrarily raising the minimum wage is a great deal like providing healthcare for everyone ... It's not a matter of some politicians caring for poor people and others not caring. At the end of the day, someone must pay for it! -- And that is what is invariably missing from all of these largely liberal schemes to spend 'Other People's Money' on unfunded 'apple pie and motherhood feel-good' programs.
"increase their output or value to the company by 50%" - you will not be able to define neither output ($) nor value to the company for fear of your life. Those are ideological hogwash terms. In practice owners/managers assign arbitrary values favoring them naturally. There are no rules, no formulas, the only rule: "output" and "value" are intimately linked with one' place in an hierarchy of an organization, workers cannot do squat to undermine that rule. External government compulsion would force employers to re-evaluate relative contributions along the chain of work hierarchy, that's all.
I do not understand how the person that starts a business with his own money and can not afford to pay himself the minimum wage can stay in business. Guess the goverment must give him money until they get their business built up? Hope they do not have to hire too may employees during the start up phase.
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