Philadelphia's lack of highways and freeways.. . (Conshohocken, Penn: living, move, train)

[mancat100]

Originally Posted by pman

so you want to blow up the city to get to it?
it would be wonderful if the interchange between 76 and 676 could be buried, freeing up space for local surface streets to connect with 30th st station and university city.

Yes. I'd be for condemning and demolishing that very small part of the city that would be affected by widening the Schuylkill expressway to 8 lanes - and ONLY if burying it or double decking it is impossible. This particular highway is too important to be a glorified wagon trail.

[pman]

Originally Posted by mancat100

Yes. I'd be for condemning and demolishing that very small part of the city that would be affected by widening the Schuylkill expressway to 8 lanes - and ONLY if burying it or double decking it is impossible. This particular highway is too important to be a glorified wagon trail.

8 lanes from 4 all the way to KoP or only 8 lanes in the city? the original plan was to build a twin on the other side of the river where manayunk and east falls are located, thankfully that died. it was initially planned as the valley forge parkway, the connector to the turnpike. what part of the city would need to be demolished so that you can have eight lanes? in my experience that is probably unnecessary, it really isn't that bad in the city with the rather large exception of the RT1 interchange. if RT1 were a buried expressway east of broad st it would be a viable alternative to 76-676-95. anyway, I believe the current plan that penndot is entertaining is a second deck but it would need to be a toll rd to get funded. when I commuted on that road I certainly would have paid for to drive it with fewer cars. the problem is that it's a commuter road, widening it isn't necessary for freight which found other means long ago, and commuter assets are extremely unprofitable.

[SIZE=4]The Philadelphia Extension is Exit 226 to Exit 326, built in the late 1940s and opened on November 20, 1950..[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][SIZE=+1]Planning for a cars-only parkway, such as in New York City, to parallel the Schuylkill River began in 1932. The Valley Forge Parkway, as it was named, would connect Fairmount Park to the Valley Forge National Historic Park with a potential extension to Pottstown and Reading. However, unlike New York City, Philadelphia did not have someone as powerful as Robert Moses to push the plan through and so it ended up shelved...The second proposal was what eventually led to today's expressway. The entire expressway would have four 12-foot-wide lanes (two in each direction) and where possible there would be eight-foot-wide shoulders. Six lanes would be built from Exit 339 to Exit 344 and Exit 346B to Exit 347B. Both directions would be separated by a four-foot-wide median with reflectorized curbs. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][SIZE=+1]Construction on the earliest section of the expressway to be built began in 1950 on the part from the Turnpike to Exit 339. A year later, the section from Exit 326 to Exit 328 opened as part of the Philadelphia Extension. In 1952, the section from Exit 328 to Exit 332 opened. Construction on the Walt Whitman Bridge began in August 1953 and concluded with a ribbon cutting on May 16, 1957. On September 1, 1954 the remainder of the expressway to City Avenue opened. Planners in 1950 predicted that 41,000 cars a day would use this stretch, compared to a 1981 study that counted 132,000 cars a day using the same stretch of expressway.[/SIZE] ...officials saw that the expressway would not be able to handle the growing traffic so the first operational study was conducted. Out of this study, in 1962, the Department of Highways proposed a parallel route in the eventually cancelled Manayunk Expressway which would sit on the eastern bank of the Schuylkill... Widening the Schuylkill Expressway to eight lanes was also a solution pursued utilizing the existing expressway and building four eastbound lanes above from the 30th Street Station and south through the University of Pennsylvania and Philadelphia Civic Center area. Its completion was scheduled for 1976. ..
[SIZE=+1]Again in 1970, proposals came into play on how to improve the expressway. A series of recommendations came about in a report entitled the "South Central Transportation Study." It recommended widening the expressway to at least six lanes between the Turnpike and Walt Whitman Bridge, building a Grays Ferry Spur along Grays Ferry Avenue, and building a ramp from I-76 westbound to eastbound Walnut Street. And again, these recommendations were not followed...[SIZE=4] With mounting life and property losses from the numerous accidents and lawsuits filed against them, PennDOT devised a $250 million plan to rebuild the expressway from Valley Forge to the Schuylkill River bridge. The project began on March 1, 1985, in what became known as the "Schuylkill Squeeze." The project included repaving with a skid-resistant material, rehabilitating the Vine Street Expressway interchange, redecking and rebuilding 50 bridges, installing a Jersey barrier in the median, installing new reflective signs to replace the aged button-copy ones, improving shoulders, entrance/exit ramps, acceleration/deceleration ramps, and drainage.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]During the work, a problem was discovered with the new Vine Street Expressway interchange, which was sinking under its own weight. The problem was rectified with a new lightweight concrete that rested on steel beams that were hammered into the ground and rested on bedrock. Finally, in September 1989, the project was completed and Philadelphia had a dramatically improved highway.[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]

http://www.pahighways.com/interstates/I76.html

By the time the last stretch opened in 1959, Dilworth could boast of a new urban highway, the Roosevelt Expressway, and an embryonic mass transportation authority. But he could not forgive the road’s blunt incursion into Fairmount Park. Truly, Fairmount Park had been irreparably changed. Gustine Lake, a large public swimming hole in East Park near Ridge Avenue and City Line Avenue Bridge had been filled in for the aptly named “Gustine Lake Interchange.” Greenland Mansion in Fairmount Park stood right in the path of the Expressway – it would have sat right where the Greenland Road bridge now stands. Much sculpture was displaced and the large impervious surfaces of the road now affect the park’s watersheds. And the ever present drone of traffic interrupts the stillness. Allowing the road to bisect West Park was “the worst mistake in my Administration,” Dilworth later lamented.

http://www.phillyhistory.org/blog/in...worst-mistake/

[mancat100]

8 lanes from end to end by any means necessary - preferably the least destructive to anything historic or notable.

[pman]

Originally Posted by mancat100

8 lanes from end to end by any means necessary - preferably the least destructive to anything historic or notable.

needless to say, plenty of people would try to stop it by any means necessary (and with good reason, if it can't be built as a second deck it's a bad idea).the money would be better spent paying down Philadelphia's pension debt and lowering business taxes...or even lower state business taxes, though that would create fewer union jobs.

[stuckinsj]

Originally Posted by mancat100

8 lanes from end to end by any means necessary - preferably the least destructive to anything historic or notable.

I'll start by taking your home.

[mancat100]

Originally Posted by stuckinsj

I'll start by taking your home.

Nice try, but actually I'd be fine with that. I don't get too attached to material things. It's easy enough to move to another home. In reality, though, there are very, very few houses that would need to be taken- especially when weighed against the likely overall benefit to the the entire region.

[pman]

Originally Posted by mancat100

Nice try, but actually I'd be fine with that. I don't get too attached to material things. It's easy enough to move to another home. In reality, though, there are very, very few houses that would need to be taken- especially when weighed against the likely overall benefit to the the entire region.

this seems like a dubious assumption, if it were true, penndot would have moved by now, but in all likelihood, it isn't true. it's surrounded houses, oftentimes people with a lot of sway, rivers, railroads, and hills all of which would have to be compensated. it's certainly possible you could tear up the schuylkill river trail and rebuild the railroad as a substitute for the one that connects NS main line with Philadelphia's port but in the real world there costs and benefits...restoring the manayunk viaduct for freight rail. after all, that freight rail also brings in oil shipments from north dakota headed to refineries. this isn't all bad of course, eliminating the river trail in favor of rail assets would probably be a positive but it would be expensive. the benefit isn't so great that the cost doesn't matter and you're assumption that some people in the region are more important than others is also dubious. like I said, if it were easy, it would have been done by now, but it's not, and the benefits are likely nowhere near as great as you think. just how do you think the region would be different? more sprawl?
if we make the schuylkill part of the turnpike we'll be able to finance improvements as well as depress the user base. the main problem is that it's free and like a lot of free things, over used.what would ridership on the regional rail network look like if it were free? I'd go so far as to say if there is a magic bullet for infrastructure, tolling 76 is it...especially if the revenue is either dedicated to the road itself or to the region.

[auntieannie68]

Originally Posted by pman

this seems like a dubious assumption, if it were true, penndot would have moved by now, but in all likelihood, it isn't true. it's surrounded houses, oftentimes people with a lot of sway, rivers, railroads, and hills all of which would have to be compensated. it's certainly possible you could tear up the schuylkill river trail and rebuild the railroad as a substitute for the one that connects NS main line with Philadelphia's port but in the real world there costs and benefits...restoring the manayunk viaduct for freight rail. after all, that freight rail also brings in oil shipments from north dakota headed to refineries. this isn't all bad of course, eliminating the river trail in favor of rail assets would probably be a positive but it would be expensive. the benefit isn't so great that the cost doesn't matter and you're assumption that some people in the region are more important than others is also dubious. like I said, if it were easy, it would have been done by now, but it's not, and the benefits are likely nowhere near as great as you think. just how do you think the region would be different? more sprawl?
if we make the schuylkill part of the turnpike we'll be able to finance improvements as well as depress the user base. the main problem is that it's free and like a lot of free things, over used.what would ridership on the regional rail network look like if it were free? I'd go so far as to say if there is a magic bullet for infrastructure, tolling 76 is it...especially if the revenue is either dedicated to the road itself or to the region.

--makes sense

[mancat100]

Originally Posted by pman

you're assumption that some people in the region are more important than others is also dubious.

Never said this. Don't think it either. I just want a better road.

[stuckinsj]

Originally Posted by mancat100

Never said this. Don't think it either. I just want a better road.

Yes you did by saying "by any means necessary"