Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yeah, I grew up in Cheltenham, which has been trending more black for probably 30 years...its been a relatively slow transition, which is the best one can hope for. I'm a millennial, so when I was there I would say 30% of my homeroom was Jewish, 30% were black and 30% were white (mostly catholic), the rest asian (mostly Korean)...the great unifier was that we were all Liberal (and our hatred/insecurity around you galloping ghosts, who we knew looked down on us. LOL)...but all "Left" without question.....its changing/changed now because of what you said....they use taxes as the excuse but we all know many people are uncomfortable with that level of diversity; even still, those that don't choose the schools still stay in the township and choose private. But we are digressing....
to reel it back in, come to think of it, there are cultural places that asians use in place of Chinatown, one is in Cheltenham (but thats Korean), and perhaps Upper Darby (when In doubt follow the H-Mart), but in those places they comprise of a subgroup, amongst other groups.
I am entirely confident in the survival of Chinatown in Philadelphia, look at the New York example...it survives and GROWS despite the hyper gentrification of Downtown Manhattan. SOHO, NOHO, NoLitA, Lower East Side and East Village all surround it, and yet it grows.
Since I'm more or less in on this exchange, I figure I should put my background out there:
I'm evidently the oldest of all of us in this particular circle — I'm a Boomer, born in the peak year for births in the Baby Boom, 1958. Even so, whenever I hear talk of Boomers, I always get the idea they're talking about people just a little older than I am. Anyway, I become Medicare-eligible in October (but since I'm still working, I don't need to sign up for Parts B, C or D).
I'm not a native Philadelphian, though I've lived here long enough (40 years come Sept. 1) that I may as well be — certainly longer than anywhere else I've lived, including my native Kansas City, Mo. I grew up on the Black East Side of the city but attended school (first public, then private) on the white West Side of it. (You can read a little about this and about one of my parents in the quasi-autobiographical article I wrote as the main feature of the 2020 Schools Issue of Phillymag.) I do, however, describe myself as "a forever Kansas Citian and an adopted Philadelphian" and point out that Kansas Citians take the place with them no matter where they end up living or whether they ever live there again. (I have several anecdotes to illustrate this point. I also note that Philadelphians have the same tendency.)
I've drifted to the right of where I was as a youth politically (this is a more or less natural occurrence as one ages*), but I refer to my politics as "left-libertarian," which means neither group knows exactly what to do with me.
That having been taken care of, back to the subject at hand:
I guess, given past history, that your optimism about Chinatown's future survival has some basis in fact. We've blocked its expansion westward with a convention center and run a freeway along its northern border, but neither have caused the neighborhood to shrink — in fact, it's colonized the land on the other side of the Vine Expressway from it. The Gallery^WFashion District mall just to its south serves as a buffer between it and the rest of Center City already, so it's already hemmed in on the south, and the arena won't do much to change things there.
I know the Sixers want to build an arena because they want to control the revenue stream from other events rather than remain a tenant of the Comcast subsidiary that owns the Flyers, and I'm pretty sure that the reason the Sixers want to put their arena at 11th and Market is because the Gallery makeover isn't quite panning out as PREIT/Macerich had hoped it would. That last will serve as a rather powerful counter to both the objections of Chinatown and any possibility that the Sixers might consider crossing Market Street.
But I guess I too would develop a heightened sense of outrage if I lived in a neighborhood that always seems to be acted on rather than acting. (BTW and FWIW, Chinatown is also the poorest neighborhood in Center City.)
"when in doubt follow the H Mart" The Korean-American founder of that chain has stated somewhere that what he wants to build is a supermarket chain that appeals to both Koreans and non-Koreans, one that showcases Korean and East Asian foods to an American audience. Something I've noticed from my encounters with other Korean-Americans is that (South) Koreans are immensely proud of the culture and society they have built, and given that the country was poor and starving after the end of World War II, I'd say they have every right to be. (You might find the company's founder's greeting on its website illustrative here.) I'd probably shop at the Front and Godfrey H Mart (a one-seat bus ride from where I live) more often were it not for the fact that the (Korean-American) owners of the Chelten Market (former Germantown Pathmark) near me have a decent selection of Asian products. (They also have a good selection of Caribbean items, something their customers probably educated them on. I found a bottle of mauby concentrate at that store and bought one for my Trinidadian-American bf. I hadn't run across the beverage, which he told me about, anywhere before; it's delicious — sort of like root beer without the fizz.)
*Winston Churchill, one of the greatest quipmasters in the English-speaking world, had a good one describing (his take on) this tendency:
"If you're a conservative at 20, you have no heart. If you're a liberal at 60, you have no head."
I have no data to support this, but I would imagine, it's in part due to movement of people. As our city has concentrically gown outward, filling in former low-income gaps like Hawthorne, Fishtown, Port Richmond, Brewerytown, West Philly, etc..., many former residents have been pushed further from the city core. In many instances this is out of the city entirely to the inner burbs.
But don't worry, there's still plenty of poverty to go around, and since people who can't support one child continually have 6-12 kids, I don't see this being solved anytime soon.
Yes, more money has moved into Port Richmond and Fishtown, but they're replacing/replaced the blue collar working-class, people who aren't/weren't exactly 'low income.'
I'll have a longer, more engaged response with your posts later on tonight — I'm busy procrastinating on a grocery run I need to make — but I need to post this right now to pick an all-too-common grammar nit that presses my hot button. You even recognized the problem without knowing it:
This particular phrase is inaccurate, and your mentioning Detroit — 31.8 percent of whose residents live in poverty, well above our 22.3 percent (which, by the way, represents a drop from its level of 25 percent in the previous decade) — shows why.
We are:
the poorest of the nation's 10 largest cities
the poorest city with 1 million or more residents in the country (as of now, there are only 10 of these)
If you want to use a phrase that's less of a mouthful, say that we're "the poorest city of [its|our] size in the country".
That quote above should be attributed to me and I’ll take ownership of it, no matter how technically flawed it may be.
It’s a testament to the city that we’ve been able to increase our population over the last 40 years or so while Detroit has fallen to a low enough floor that, while improving in the last couple decades, doesn’t have a seven-figure population count.
Still, you’re familiar with the dubious title our city has been given. I appreciate that you clarified things for proper perspective.
Yeah, I grew up in Cheltenham, which has been trending more black for probably 30 years...its been a relatively slow transition, which is the best one can hope for. I'm a millennial, so when I was there I would say 30% of my homeroom was Jewish, 30% were black and 30% were white (mostly catholic), the rest asian (mostly Korean)...the great unifier was that we were all Liberal (and our hatred/insecurity around you galloping ghosts, who we knew looked down on us. LOL)...but all "Left" without question.....its changing/changed now because of what you said....they use taxes as the excuse but we all know many people are uncomfortable with that level of diversity; even still, those that don't choose the schools still stay in the township and choose private. But we are digressing....
That tracks with what I've been told from people who live in Cheltenham. And yes, the southeasternmost tip of Montco - including Jenkintown - is about as blue as anywhere in the metro. Abington appears to be "purple" with Trump signs more likely west of Easton Road/Route 63. But we do digress...
Quote:
To reel it back in, come to think of it, there are cultural places that asians use in place of Chinatown, one is in Cheltenham (but thats Korean), and perhaps Upper Darby (when In doubt follow the H-Mart), but in those places they comprise of a subgroup, amongst other groups.
I've seen the Korean shopping center on the edge of West Oak Lane and Elkins Park. I recall the virtues of H-Mart in Upper Darby and elsewhere being extolled often here in the forum. There's also the bumper crop of Vietnamese-run establishments in South Philly adjacent to the Italian Market. Are the services offered at these establishments pan-Asian? (I know H-Mart might be close to that as MSE stated above.)
Quote:
I am entirely confident in the survival of Chinatown in Philadelphia, look at the New York example...it survives and GROWS despite the hyper gentrification of Downtown Manhattan. SOHO, NOHO, NoLitA, Lower East Side and East Village all surround it, and yet it grows.
Again I have to take your word for it as I don't really know NYC all that well let alone Chinatown. What I *do* know, having spent several years in the DC metro and watching the (d)evolution of that area's Chinatown is that scenario seems more likely IMO.
As many may know by now, there was a protest today in Chinatown against the Sixers arena proposal. One thing that I had not thought about and hadn't been discussed here is the potential impact of construction on the small businesses nearby. That makes sense as if the streets are cut off by noise and dust pollution, that could discourage a lot of people from traveling north off Market Street.
I've seen the Korean shopping center on the edge of West Oak Lane and Elkins Park. I recall the virtues of H-Mart in Upper Darby and elsewhere being extolled often here in the forum. There's also the bumper crop of Vietnamese-run establishments in South Philly adjacent to the Italian Market. Are the services offered at these establishments pan-Asian? (I know H-Mart might be close to that as MSE stated above.)
The Vietnamese restaurants focus exclusively on Vietnamese food, but the Vietnamese supermarkets do run the gamut of East Asian products. (However, the one I went to on Washington Avenue definitely didn't care about attracting non-Asian shoppers: most of those would probably object to the fishy smell of Hung Vuong Supermarket's fish counter.)
You can also get American deli meats (prepackaged —*Dietz & Watson here) and other foods in H Mart stores. Of course, they account for a very small portion of the products sold, but I consider their inclusion significant, for most Asian supermarkets carry no American or Western food products at all. I also consider H Mart's stocking them a manifestation of their aim of offering Asian foods in a store that has something for non-Asians (or non-Koreans) as well.
Footnote, since I mentioned fish and seafood sections: Those in H Mart stores don't smell fishy at all, and they have a much wider variety of fresh fish and seafood than their American counterparts carry. The newest H Mart, at Front and Godfrey (a former Super Fresh, it's the largest H Mart in this market), has a graphic over the seafood counter featuring a squid and the legend "So fresh...it's alive." And there are dozens of tanks with live creatures in them behind the seafood counter staff.
Since I'm more or less in on this exchange, I figure I should put my background out there:
I'm evidently the oldest of all of us in this particular circle — I'm a Boomer, born in the peak year for births in the Baby Boom, 1958. Even so, whenever I hear talk of Boomers, I always get the idea they're talking about people just a little older than I am. Anyway, I become Medicare-eligible in October (but since I'm still working, I don't need to sign up for Parts B, C or D).
I'm not a native Philadelphian, though I've lived here long enough (40 years come Sept. 1) that I may as well be — certainly longer than anywhere else I've lived, including my native Kansas City, Mo. I grew up on the Black East Side of the city but attended school (first public, then private) on the white West Side of it. (You can read a little about this and about one of my parents in the quasi-autobiographical article I wrote as the main feature of the 2020 Schools Issue of Phillymag.) I do, however, describe myself as "a forever Kansas Citian and an adopted Philadelphian" and point out that Kansas Citians take the place with them no matter where they end up living or whether they ever live there again. (I have several anecdotes to illustrate this point. I also note that Philadelphians have the same tendency.)
I've drifted to the right of where I was as a youth politically (this is a more or less natural occurrence as one ages*), but I refer to my politics as "left-libertarian," which means neither group knows exactly what to do with me.
That having been taken care of, back to the subject at hand:
I guess, given past history, that your optimism about Chinatown's future survival has some basis in fact. We've blocked its expansion westward with a convention center and run a freeway along its northern border, but neither have caused the neighborhood to shrink — in fact, it's colonized the land on the other side of the Vine Expressway from it. The Gallery^WFashion District mall just to its south serves as a buffer between it and the rest of Center City already, so it's already hemmed in on the south, and the arena won't do much to change things there.
I know the Sixers want to build an arena because they want to control the revenue stream from other events rather than remain a tenant of the Comcast subsidiary that owns the Flyers, and I'm pretty sure that the reason the Sixers want to put their arena at 11th and Market is because the Gallery makeover isn't quite panning out as PREIT/Macerich had hoped it would. That last will serve as a rather powerful counter to both the objections of Chinatown and any possibility that the Sixers might consider crossing Market Street.
But I guess I too would develop a heightened sense of outrage if I lived in a neighborhood that always seems to be acted on rather than acting. (BTW and FWIW, Chinatown is also the poorest neighborhood in Center City.)
"when in doubt follow the H Mart" The Korean-American founder of that chain has stated somewhere that what he wants to build is a supermarket chain that appeals to both Koreans and non-Koreans, one that showcases Korean and East Asian foods to an American audience. Something I've noticed from my encounters with other Korean-Americans is that (South) Koreans are immensely proud of the culture and society they have built, and given that the country was poor and starving after the end of World War II, I'd say they have every right to be. (You might find the company's founder's greeting on its website illustrative here.) I'd probably shop at the Front and Godfrey H Mart (a one-seat bus ride from where I live) more often were it not for the fact that the (Korean-American) owners of the Chelten Market (former Germantown Pathmark) near me have a decent selection of Asian products. (They also have a good selection of Caribbean items, something their customers probably educated them on. I found a bottle of mauby concentrate at that store and bought one for my Trinidadian-American bf. I hadn't run across the beverage, which he told me about, anywhere before; it's delicious — sort of like root beer without the fizz.)
*Winston Churchill, one of the greatest quipmasters in the English-speaking world, had a good one describing (his take on) this tendency:
"If you're a conservative at 20, you have no heart. If you're a liberal at 60, you have no head."
I too have moved to the right as I have aged, and am approaching middle ages, so i get it; i'm not the same person that called Bush "evil" and Bush voters stupid....in my yearbook quote! (It was the times, lol)
And I get the Chinatown residents anxiety about the arena; based off everything you said, I get it. I still think its misplaced, and part of those that are doing the "riling up" is the professional activist social justice class that looks for these kinds of perceived injustices; we both live in Germantown....that place is infested with the type; though not all are misguided....perhaps they haven't aged. LoL. They shouldn't feel like they have to worry about their survival, they shouldn't have been made to feel like they have to worry about their survival; not over this. The biggest threat to their survival, is what i mentioned before, when non-chinese start to populate that area in large numbers.....which they are doing more and more....but they dont/cant talk about that.
As for my motivation: To me, the benefit of the city as a whole is most important; apart from special interests, though should be considered, should never get in the way of the greater good. This arena being important to the health of Center City, the economic health of the businesses and tax base...and its simply good business. I grew up with the images of Rendell era Philadelphia in my head, so my earliest memories of this city is of blight, abandonment and a general underachievement...and we are finally seeing that change in the last 20 or so years, so I'm mostly motivated by seeing the whole city reach its potential; the biggest part of that is blight removal and development and I will say we've succeeded when there are no more "gap tooth" blocks and North Philadelphia looks like South Philadelphia development wise.
As for "H-Mart"...the one on Cheltenham Ave (which was probably the first in this area) was there forever, and I know they have a food court that's a meeting spot for asians and non asians; all of them have that pull. Of course, that doesn't make up for a whole entire neighborhood, but idk if Chinatown represents something special for asians as a whole or just Chinatown. In my experience young Asians do as young Americans do, and hang out at the regions malls and downtown as a whole, they're not self segregated into Chinatowns....but that is one destination they DO hang out at. Respectfully to FindingZen, I don't think it would be devastating to Asian culture and Chinatown as a "meeting spot" if it were to diminish; I'm entirely confident that something somewhere would take its place...be it Washington Avenue, Frankford Avenue, Cheltenham Avenue, North 5th Street or South 7th Street or 69th Street.
That tracks with what I've been told from people who live in Cheltenham. And yes, the southeasternmost tip of Montco - including Jenkintown - is about as blue as anywhere in the metro. Abington appears to be "purple" with Trump signs more likely west of Easton Road/Route 63. But we do digress...
I used to always joke that Cheltenham is basically black people from Northwest Philly on a come up meets white people from Northeast Philly on a come up. So places like Glenside (in both townships), Ardsley, Roslyn and Cheltenham Village have that element of "old" Northeast white working class Regan Republicanism....despite me saying it was extremely left. But they are a small minority in both townships. Also exists in the same general area, historically black suburban communities like Crestmont and LaMott. Despite all that, As you know, the history and culture of both areas are a sort of left wing-heavily Jewish, heavily catholic-new money-Northern suburban equivalent of the Main Line (much more egalitarian); and that is the dominant culture. I do wonder what the region will look like in the future given the demographic changes, namely Jewish preference for Lower Merion and the Main Line. 20 years ago I would have said a growing Asian population would take its place; but those groups seem to be bypassing it in favor of further west into Upper Dublin, Wissahickon and Blue Bell areas; and of course North Penn school district which is heavily Asian.
As many may know by now, there was a protest today in Chinatown against the Sixers arena proposal. One thing that I had not thought about and hadn't been discussed here is the potential impact of construction on the small businesses nearby. That makes sense as if the streets are cut off by noise and dust pollution, that could discourage a lot of people from traveling north off Market Street.
They effectively tied up the 61 and 48 buses yesterday afternoon. Had children, elderly, and people trying to get to work stuck in the heat. If you’re going to protest, please take it to City Hall to be heard by those who are involved. Don’t hurt people who have nothing to do with this.
I too have moved to the right as I have aged, and am approaching middle ages, so i get it; i'm not the same person that called Bush "evil" and Bush voters stupid....in my yearbook quote! (It was the times, lol)
Your admission here helps me to understand your perspective on things. I'm definitely (well) left of center which might help you understand where *I* am coming from. Still not a W fan but compared the current alternative, he almost seems quaint. Almost.
Quote:
And I get the Chinatown residents anxiety about the arena; based off everything you said, I get it. I still think its misplaced, and part of those that are doing the "riling up" is the professional activist social justice class that looks for these kinds of perceived injustices; we both live in Germantown....that place is infested with the type; though not all are misguided....perhaps they haven't aged. LoL.
From what I saw in a video from Channel 6, the majority of protesters were Asian. I recall one Black pastor offering a soundbite in support. I'll say that if it weren't for "social justice" during our (grand)parents' time, the odds of us growing up in Montco would have been slim at best.
Quote:
They shouldn't feel like they have to worry about their survival, they shouldn't have been made to feel like they have to worry about their survival; not over this. The biggest threat to their survival, is what i mentioned before, when non-chinese start to populate that area in large numbers.....which they are doing more and more....but they dont/cant talk about that.
Agreed that they shouldn't have to worry about surviving the impact of the arena from the interim effect of construction per the 6ABC piece to being pushed out by property taxes, higher rents and development unrelated to the neighborhood fabric...but yet they are. I bet they are also concerned about non-Chinese (or at least non-Asian) neighbors coming in. I have to wonder how they feel about HSBC leaving 11th and Arch in favor of yet another Citizens.
Quote:
As for my motivation: To me, the benefit of the city as a whole is most important; apart from special interests, though should be considered, should never get in the way of the greater good. This arena being important to the health of Center City, the economic health of the businesses and tax base...and its simply good business. I grew up with the images of Rendell era Philadelphia in my head, so my earliest memories of this city is of blight, abandonment and a general underachievement...and we are finally seeing that change in the last 20 or so years, so I'm mostly motivated by seeing the whole city reach its potential; the biggest part of that is blight removal and development and I will say we've succeeded when there are no more "gap tooth" blocks and North Philadelphia looks like South Philadelphia development wise.
I believe there are ways that the city can benefit without sacrificing the most vulnerable and/or marginalized.
Quote:
As for "H-Mart"...the one on Cheltenham Ave (which was probably the first in this area) was there forever, and I know they have a food court that's a meeting spot for asians and non asians; all of them have that pull. Of course, that doesn't make up for a whole entire neighborhood, but idk if Chinatown represents something special for asians as a whole or just Chinatown. In my experience young Asians do as young Americans do, and hang out at the regions malls and downtown as a whole, they're not self segregated into Chinatowns....but that is one destination they DO hang out at. Respectfully to FindingZen, I don't think it would be devastating to Asian culture and Chinatown as a "meeting spot" if it were to diminish; I'm entirely confident that something somewhere would take its place...be it Washington Avenue, Frankford Avenue, Cheltenham Avenue, North 5th Street or South 7th Street or 69th Street.
Respectfully, I'd still maintain a lot of Chinese Philadelphians would disagree. I wish there were some on this forum that could confirm or refute my instincts.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The Korean-American founder of that chain has stated somewhere that what he wants to build is a supermarket chain that appeals to both Koreans and non-Koreans, one that showcases Korean and East Asian foods to an American audience. Something I've noticed from my encounters with other Korean-Americans is that (South) Koreans are immensely proud of the culture and society they have built, and given that the country was poor and starving after the end of World War II, I'd say they have every right to be. (You might find 
