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The quick answer to the OP would be to look for NDE's that have a certain degree of correlation with reality. For example, if a patient experienced NDE and out of body experience (OBE), he would have seen the surrounding and whatever events that are happening at that moment. If he came back to tell about it later and accurately described what have happened and actually happened, then there's no other explanation than it's real.
The quick answer to the OP would be to look for NDE's that have a certain degree of correlation with reality. For example, if a patient experienced NDE and out of body experience (OBE), he would have seen the surrounding and whatever events that are happening at that moment. If he came back to tell about it later and accurately described what have happened and actually happened, then there's no other explanation than it's real.
If it's real then what do you think it is indicative of? does our consciousness go somewhere else
I am skeptical of an Afterlife. I have looked those that have studied this. There is nothing out there conclusive. Have you heard of any that were successful?
Stuart Hammeroff (anesthesiologist ) who is looking into consciousness, thinks it exists on quantum level in the cell as opposed to being and emergent property of the brain.
It's very interesting I have no idea where the research is going at this point
There are lots of ways of getting high. I have had some wowzers of hallucinations on anesthesia, and wasn't anywhere near death. Are hallucinations real? Yeah, there are hallucinations, so you have to admit they are real. Are they factual? Not even close. They are just whatever your randomly firing neurons decide to spit out.
You can be sure that hallucinations are the first explanation people looked into for NDE's. They don't match up, hallucinations, while real seeming, are known to be false. I've taken mushrooms before and watched a armoire melt into the floor, my friend turn into a goblin, an entire field of grass continuously growing upward without getting taller. Super intense, there was no doubt I was experiencing it, but I knew it wasn't real. Even if someone snuck the mushrooms into my food or something I would still know.
NDE's are felt as being real, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Even once people are "back" and have all their mental faculties on line(i.e, they aren't insane/mentally handicapped or something), they still feel 100% that it was real. In fact, they say it was MORE real then normal physical life. That is where hallucinations and the NDE part ways. When you wake up from a dream, you know it wasn't real, even though it seemed that way. That doesn't happen with NDE's. Something about them is different.
Another interesting thing, the majority of religious people who have NDE's end up distancing themselves from organized religion as a result. It doesn't fit with what they experienced, it's too constrictive/limiting.
That's always been my assumption. That organized religion is pretty far off from the reality of what happens after we die. The Long Island Medium is probably a better source than any religion
Yeah it's called the AWARE study I believe, it is ongoing. It's going to be tough due to the unplanned nature of NDE's, plus people experiencing them aren't usually focused on the room around them, instead choosing to focus on the body below them being worked on (they are very detached from it, they don't see the body as them at that point, just a vessel they used to get around for awhile).
Dr. Parnia has stated very emphatically that the results of AWARE have not been released yet.
Stuart Hammeroff (anesthesiologist ) who is looking into consciousness, thinks it exists on quantum level in the cell as opposed to being and emergent property of the brain.
It's very interesting I have no idea where the research is going at this point
Well, once you get down to the quantum level, why would consciousness be relegated to only cells? Everything is made up of the same stuff at that level, if consciousness exists at a quantum level then it should be all pervasive right?
I'm not too knowledgeable on quantum mechanics, just thinking out loud here.
We are very aware of the total lack of electrical activity in the brain when a person is not breathing, has no pulse, and has fixed and dilated pupils. We are also very aware of what activity looks like when a person is fully conscious. Even if there is some activity(which there isn't, so far as we have been able to tell), the NDE experience as reported by thousands of independent people who get zero benefit from telling their story(and usually get harmed by people judging and putting them down, telling them they are crazy, losing respect for them, even when they are otherwise respected and intelligent people, etc) is a story of hyper-real(meaning MORE REAL THEN NORMAL) conscious experience.
And again, what about all the persons who almost die, and experience absolutely nothing? This is far more often the case than those who have NDEs. As I've said before, the brain is a complex neurological amalgamation. When a person is in that state and gradually regains consciousness their neural activity could fire in such a way that it results all sorts of fantastical experiences. While these experiences are 'real' to the person experiencing them, they probably aren't objectively real.
BTW, by definition there is no such thing as 'hyper-real'. Something is either real or it is not. 'Hyper-real' is a purely hyperbolic term.
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Originally Posted by tofur
This does not fit with the current mainstream assumption (and it is an assumption, make no mistake. All we see is that there is a correlation between the brain and consciousness, and correlation doesn't imply causation)
There is strong physical evidence that certain brain structure are responsible for or at least greatly contribute to conscious experience. How do we know this? Because when these structures are damaged in individuals they report changes in their conscious experience. And when these structures cease to function entirely these individuals are completely incapable of communicating anything or displaying any form of sentience.
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Originally Posted by tofur
(long term studies have shown NDE memories don't distort or fade with time, even over decades).
Even normal memories distort with age/time. There is a tremendous body of psychological research documenting this. For instance, when individuals re-watch a film they first viewed 20 years ago it's very common for many specific aspects, especially the ending, to be different from how they remembered it.
Virtually all memories become distorted with time. As the physiology of the brain changes as we age, often memories do as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tofur
NDE's are not easily explained, plain n' simple. Anyone who thinks so hasn't looked into the research with an open mind.
There difference between being critically-minded and closed-minded. All you've offered are some incredible anecdotes that can mostly be explained in neurological and psychological terms. To be sure, we're all somewhat closed-minded in the sense we all have prejudices and preconceptions.
But asserting that NDE are objectively real is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. So far the only evidence you've provided are meager anecdotes that are easily debunked.
Last edited by Apathizer; 05-29-2014 at 12:27 AM..
And again, what about all the persons who almost die, and experience absolutely nothing? This is far more often the case than those who have NDEs. As I've said before, the brain is a complex neurological amalgamation. When a person is in that state and gradually regains consciousness their neural activity could fire in such a way that it results all sorts of fantastical experiences. While these experiences are 'real' to the person experiencing them, they probably aren't objectively real.
BTW, by definition there is no such thing as 'hyper-real'. Something is either real or it is not. 'Hyper-real' is a purely hyperbolic term.
I already touched on a possible explanation for why some experience NDE's and others don't. Also, the same line of questioning applies to the physical explanation. On a purely physical level the process of dying is the same for all humans, it stays within a narrow range. If the NDE was physical in nature, why do only some experience them?
There is strong physical evidence that certain brain structure are responsible for or at least greatly contribute to conscious experience. How do we know this? Because when these structures are damaged in individuals they report changes in their conscious experience. And when these structures cease to function entirely these individuals are completely incapable of communicating anything or displaying any form of sentience.
Like I said, just because certain aspects of consciousness are correlated to certain parts of the brain, doesn't mean the brain is causing them. That is an assumption. We haven't actually proven that consciousness is created in the brain, we don't even know what consciousness is. The other way to view this: Just because you damage or remove certain parts of your TV doesn't mean the cable/satellite signal is damaged. The body=the TV.
Even normal memories distort with age/time. There is a tremendous body of psychological research documenting this. For instance, when individuals re-watch a film they first viewed 20 years ago it's very common for many specific aspects, especially the ending, to be different from how they remembered it.
That is exactly my point, normal memories fade and distort with time. NDE memories DO NOT. Legit long term scientific research has been done on this, this isn't an opinion. Have fun trying to debunk legit and unbiased research results.
See above ^
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I was just pointing out the pitfalls of such a study.
