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So now you've gone from "brain alteration"..or "modification" to downs syndrome. Many people with downs syndrome DO have good lives.
Which I agreed with in my recent statement.
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You're comparing people born with downs syndrome to your "movers"....the horrifying difference is that your "movers" would be PURPOSELY "designed" to be of lower intelligence...so that they could (without taking offence, or retaliating against any injustice they perceive.)..go about happily doing your menial jobs like "moving your furniture" around for you.
The higher intelligence that gives you "advantages in the world we live in today" would obviously also give you those advantages in your fantasy kingdom of happy slaves that you so propose.
You're right about one thing though...altering a persons brain so that they can't think for themselves anymore, and therefor haven't the capabilities of perceiving great injustice and
discriminations towards them would probably surely make it easier for the favored "intelligent" ones to direct their slaves to do their bidding with no fear of any anger or animosity directed towards them....it probably would indeed make it easier to control them.
#1. Your perspective depends on being pessimistic about the nature of intelligent guiding forces of a society. I don't see a reason for the society to have formed the society they live in if they were not guided by the formula for morality, so they'll be taught that from a young age. I think the idea that power corrupts is accurate for modern humans, but if that can be taught away (and I don't know why it couldn't) the beginners of the society would try to teach that.
#2. I definitely disagree that it would make sense to design "slaves" just to move boxes, particularly a futuristic society in which the demand for resources necessarily to survive has primarily become obsolete. They'll have pretty much risen out of the first level of the pyramid...the basic necessities of survival level. Any security issues, assuming the societies mostly live on space stations, would mostly come from friction within their own society...so I'm imagining a society with the strongest urges for people to get along (which would fulfill the second level of the pyramid), and then searching for those higher needs.
How is designing slaves to move boxes fulfilling any higher needs or increasing the people's sense of safety? If they're being mistreated, I'd think if anything that would result in less safety, through encouraging rebellion.
If they're at the point where they're starving for basic survival resources, on the other hand, despite being a society a few thousand years in the future that probably exists largely in space stations...I'm thinking that they're not going to last much longer anyway.
#1. Your perspective depends on being pessimistic about the nature of intelligent guiding forces of a society. I don't see a reason for the society to have formed the society they live in if they were not guided by the formula for morality, so they'll be taught that from a young age. I think the idea that power corrupts is accurate for modern humans, but if that can be taught away (and I don't know why it couldn't) the beginners of the society would try to teach that.
#2. I definitely disagree that it would make sense to design "slaves" just to move boxes, particularly a futuristic society in which the demand for resources necessarily to survive has primarily become obsolete. They'll have pretty much risen out of the first level of the pyramid...the basic necessities of survival level. Any security issues, assuming the societies mostly live on space stations, would mostly come from friction within their own society...so I'm imagining a society with the strongest urges for people to get along (which would fulfill the second level of the pyramid), and then searching for those higher needs.
How is designing slaves to move boxes fulfilling any higher needs or increasing the people's sense of safety? If they're being mistreated, I'd think if anything that would result in less safety, through encouraging rebellion.
If they're at the point where they're starving for basic survival resources, on the other hand, despite being a society a few thousand years in the future that probably exists largely in space stations...I'm thinking that they're not going to last much longer anyway.
That pessimism comes from the corruption that's spewing from the supposedly "intelligent guiding forces of society" that I see today...that "pessimism" comes from having the intelligence to think and see for myself....something you would take away from me and many others, so that we'd just lay down and take it...whatever comes our way...no "perspective" of our own.
You can't just teach corruption away...unless, as you advocate, we're dummied down and lose the ability to think for ourselves, but then that's not really "teaching" is it...it's a forced dissability, only possible by altering or destroying parts of our brain.
Your "formula for reality" is a cute way of saying brain alteration...not reality at all, but a created "society" filled with the dummied down subjects saying "how high?" whenever you say jump. That's not reality at all...that's complete control over your subjects, by taking away their ability to question why.
I'd rather be dead than become a willing subject that does as he/she's told with no questions ever asked, and no show of emotion or thought processes of my own (because that's been taken away from me, apparently for my own good)...because the lucky few of "higher intelligence" tell me to.
That pessimism comes from the corruption that's spewing from the supposedly "intelligent guiding forces of society" that I see today...
We require some kind of intelligent guiding forces of society, so far as I can see. Even in anarchy, something will immediately rise to fill the power void, so I don't understand what you're criticisms of modern culture or government, or whatever group or groups you're referring to, are, judging by this statement.
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that "pessimism" comes from having the intelligence to think and see for myself....something you would take away from me and many others,
You wouldn't be alive. The Hive society would only exist in the far future, and I fail to see how the Hive society would take away any more from anyone than any modern government does. I'm unsure how you're imagining the Hive society, so interpreting your criticisms is difficult. I've been discussing it for many pages, and not just on this thread, but another one I linked to in my opening post. I don't think these vague sorts of criticisms are going to help me to understand what you disapprove of.
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so that we'd just lay down and take it...whatever comes our way...no "perspective" of our own.
I've never advocated anyone not having their own perspectives. I have said some perspectives are wrong, but you believe that too, or you wouldn't be disagreeing with my perspective.
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You can't just teach corruption away...unless, as you advocate, we're dummied down and lose the ability to think for ourselves, but then that's not really "teaching" is it...it's a forced dissability, only possible by altering or destroying parts of our brain.
You can teach corruption away. For example, if I believe my nation is filled with the corrupt, I'm going to be more likely to steal from my nation, and that'll encourage others to behave similarly. However, if I am taught that, say, my theft will make anarchy more likely to ensue, that may result in my approving of laws that forbid that theft.
The rest of that section doesn't make sense to me.
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Your "formula for reality" is a cute way of saying brain alteration
I have gone over a great deal of information in my threads relating to this topic, and I'm thankful enough that you've bothered to respond at all. I certainly don't expect you to try to memorize every detail...but that is not what the formula for morality is.
The formula for morality is a consequentialist math formula that exists in nature and pieces of it can be discovered by life, that I believe exists. It tells the ideal ways to behave, based on what behaviors would reduce suffering the most and increase pleasure the most. The Hive society is only a hypothetical result of someone following the formula for morality. It might not even be part of the formula for morality.
Now, who decides what the formula for morality says to do? You do, as much as I do. Nature actually decides. Someone must translate what nature had determined and my translation isn't necessarily any better than yours. I must show you, and convince you why my translation of pieces of it are correct or you have no reason to believe it, unless I am a trusted authority of yours. Likewise you must show me, and convince me, why your translation of pieces of the formula for morality are correct or I have no reason to believe your translation, unless I perceive you as a trusted authority.
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...not reality at all, but a created "society" filled with the dummied down subjects saying "how high?" whenever you say jump. That's not reality at all...that's complete control over your subjects, by taking away their ability to question why.
That might be part of the formula for morality...that forcing people to be dumbed down, and do whatever is requested of them without question. I don't know. That sounds to me like it would be a dangerous society though. That sounds to me like it would lead to a society of corrupt leaders who throw away the lives of their followers. I think what would be more successful, insofar as maximizing pleasure and minimizing suffering is concerned, would be the Hive society that I've been imagining, that consists of a community that has complex emotional connections to each other, and is bonded through interpersonal relationships, so that the citizens can rebel against corrupt leaders, so that the hive is kept from plummeting into rule by cruel tyrants. They'd be designed to be submissive, and unaggressive, not mindless followers. They'd have to be capable of lashing out in full revolt if pushed too far though.
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I'd rather be dead than become a willing subject that does as he/she's told with no questions ever asked, and no show of emotion or thought processes of my own (because that's been taken away from me, apparently for my own good)...because the lucky few of "higher intelligence" tell me to.
Well, that's fine. I never once suggested that you become a willing subject within the Hive. Also, beings that don't show emotion or have thought processes of their own have nothing to do with ideas I've espoused, unless I've given impressions I didn't intend to. Hive citizens might be less emotional than modern humans, but they'd have emotions, and I see no reason why they'd be discouraged from showing them. Emotions are useful in all sorts of ways.
If I design a brain to want to behave in a manner that benefits my society, the person whose brain that belongs to is still acting according to their own free will, when they behave in that manner that benefits my society. Therefore, so long as the creators of those brains are benevolent and educated to understand the consequences, that type of life creation would totally make Mother Nature's inevitably random and dangerous method of life creation obsolete. Even if the designers are a bit corrupt or reckless...Mother Nature is that way now. Alternatively, cultural engineering achieved through extensive knowledge of sociology might achieve the same results.
We're nowhere near the point of creating sentient life safely that way now, but our knowledge will grow in time, and presumably our needs for resources will reduce in time, (presumably making us less likely to strive to take those resources from one another in a manner that is damaging to one another) so I would strongly suspect we'd grow to become perpetually better at designing sentient life as time goes on, and if our descendants are following the formula for morality, they'll be striving to do the most good with what they have, so that would mean replacing Mother Nature's dangerous and unpredictable ways with a human-designed system of evolution.
Regarding the caste system in which people are born for their duties...I see nothing worse about that than parents teaching their children the family trade from a young age. Either way, how much freedom the child has to pursue their own goals depends on the parents. Either way, that sort of thing can be a hindrance or help to their life. It all depends on the parents.
"A fad rising up where people voluntarily choose brain surgery" (your words)...it'll NEVER happen!
"If I design a brain to want to behave in a manner that benefits my society, the person who's brain that belongs to is still acting according to their own free will when they behave in that manner that benefits my society" (your words)....Oh really?????
The persons who's brain you've modified or altered (as you say) has lost the ability to have free will...you've taken and destroyed that from them....You've created your own personal puppets.
And what happens if the "creators" or (destroyers, however you see it) aren't benevolent as you say....Are all the poor puppets dependent on them now for their very survival?
No one man/woman could EVER, ever, replace what mother nature knows best.
Even to think that a "human designed system of evolution" could be better than "mother natures "dangerous and unpredictable ways" is folly....and I personally do NOT think mother natures ways are anything near dangerous .
Interesting how now you say that the "designers" of your fantasy puppet land where you control (like a god) all those whose ability to think has been taken away... may be "corrupt or reckless" but it's OK because it occurs naturally (according to you) anyways.
Will the brain altered idiots be told this before submitting to the life changing alteration you think is best for them?..or more realistically best for you.
I find it amazing that you figure you've got mother nature figured out and can do better.
"A fad rising up where people voluntarily choose brain surgery" (your words)...it'll NEVER happen!
"If I design a brain to want to behave in a manner that benefits my society, the person who's brain that belongs to is still acting according to their own free will when they behave in that manner that benefits my society" (your words)....Oh really?????
The persons who's brain you've modified or altered (as you say) has lost the ability to have free will...you've taken and destroyed that from them....You've created your own personal puppets.
And what happens if the "creators" or (destroyers, however you see it) aren't benevolent as you say....Are all the poor puppets dependent on them now for their very survival?
No one man/woman could EVER, ever, replace what mother nature knows best.
Even to think that a "human designed system of evolution" could be better than "mother natures "dangerous and unpredictable ways" is folly....and I personally do NOT think mother natures ways are anything near dangerous .
Interesting how now you say that the "designers" of your fantasy puppet land where you control (like a god) all those whose ability to think has been taken away... may be "corrupt or reckless" but it's OK because it occurs naturally (according to you) anyways.
Will the brain altered idiots be told this before submitting to the life changing alteration you think is best for them?..or more realistically best for you.
I find it amazing that you figure you've got mother nature figured out and can do better.
The op was too long winded and silly to read.
It's really very simple.
Morals are God's law.
Ethics are mans.
"A fad rising up where people voluntarily choose brain surgery" (your words)...it'll NEVER happen!
Oh, look. It's memory enhancing brain surgery. Maybe I was being too conservative. Maybe it won't take thousands of years for fads rising up where people voluntarily choose brain surgery. Maybe it'll take about a decade or so. May you thoroughly enjoy any cyborg grandchildren you get
Finding a way to upgrade the human brain using synthetic components has long been a dream of scientists and researchers, but for the first time, scientists have succeeded in creating a synthetic device that enhances the human brain. Researchers at the University of Southern California have managed to engineer an electrode-based device capable of boosting human memory functions by approximately 25%. https://sciencetrends.com/brain-impl...rst-time-ever/
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"If I design a brain to want to behave in a manner that benefits my society, the person who's brain that belongs to is still acting according to their own free will when they behave in that manner that benefits my society" (your words)....Oh really?????
The persons who's brain you've modified or altered (as you say) has lost the ability to have free will...you've taken and destroyed that from them....You've created your own personal puppets.
And there's nothing necessarily wrong with me creating my own personal puppets. I could be a better designer than mother nature, or a worse designer. I could be corrupt and greedy, so that's a risk, but there's also a risk that mother nature would give someone sickle cell anemia. It just depends on what sort of risk you prefer. Maybe my brain augmentation cures the schizophrenia mother nature gave them.
Also, they haven't necessarily lost their free will. Maybe I've destroyed the old being, if I've modified the brain of someone, in a sense, but there's not necessarily any reason why the new being wouldn't have a free will of it's own, including if I designed it to serve me. Also, if it was being's choice to have their mind altered, I think you might look at it like everything that follows that is just an extension of the being's original free will, depending on how well informed they were about what they were getting into.
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And what happens if the "creators" or (destroyers, however you see it) aren't benevolent as you say....Are all the poor puppets dependent on them now for their very survival?
Probably massive, horrible suffering. I think I acknowledged that before though I don't see how that advances any arguments you've made though, because it's not like we haven't had that sort of stuff already. Different societies have different risks.
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No one man/woman could EVER, ever, replace what mother nature knows best.
Even to think that a "human designed system of evolution" could be better than "mother natures "dangerous and unpredictable ways" is folly....and I personally do NOT think mother natures ways are anything near dangerous
You don't think mother natures's ways are anywhere near dangerous compared to what? Because I'm comparing mother nature to me, and I know I would never knowingly give someone sickle cell anemia. Now I might accidentally give someone sickle cell anemia...but mother nature doesn't even try to avoid that sort of thing.
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Interesting how now you say that the "designers" of your fantasy puppet land where you control (like a god) all those whose ability to think has been taken away... may be "corrupt or reckless" but it's OK because it occurs naturally (according to you) anyways.
Will the brain altered idiots be told this before submitting to the life changing alteration you think is best for them?..or more realistically best for you.
I find it amazing that you figure you've got mother nature figured out and can do better.
Do you like smallpox? because if you don't...we've already done better. How about clean water? Flushing toilets? an understanding of various mental disorders that were once thought to be demons? Give us some credit. Look at all we've done to shape the world to be a better place, and we've made it a worse place too, but that's largely because of our primitive minds, and our needs, which mother nature gave us, which we might be able to alter someday.
It's not a bad thing to see ourselves as gods. I think that's a very admirable outlook, actually.
Last edited by Clintone; 01-13-2018 at 11:56 PM..
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