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Well, thats pretty much my point! Exactly, we are broken, all those things you mentioned are true. (except for the smoking, they smoke quite a bit if you read the articles I posted it is stated they smoke more in Japan, and most of the Asians in American colleges are in the top 10% of their class)
But, I agree with the rest, we are ridiculous and it's funny how such a young unexperienced country as ours thinks we have nothing to learn from our neighboring senior countries.
We look like little fat baby pigs, just how they portray Americans in most of their movies. Sad really, we don't encourage a good life style through our government because we will throw a fit about it like big babies, they do, we don't trust our government because we view them as the enemy (which is really strange and doesn't occur in many countries that are not 3rd world or under communist rule.
We can't criticize anything because of our weak egos. It's getting absurd and I've had about enough. We need to act our age and take some good lessons from the other countries and fix what's broken like our education and health care before we slip into such a reputation that we can no longer recover.
Japanese kids go to school a lot more than American kids do and receive a far far better education then we do. Their culture required a strong work ethic, despite pay, it's more about self respect and duty. To be frank, they don't really need as much college as we do for medical school. They are way ahead of us from the start. They spend far more time on their studies as young kids then most of us do in college. You should go over there for a trip and check it out. It's a lot different.
Even Asians raised in America with parents who teach the same standards here do much better. If you ask a Japanese person what it takes to be so good at math they will say it takes hard work. Americans will say some people are born better at math than others. Not really, and we need to stop making excuses for ourselves, thats one thing we are good at. Don't you think? We look like a bunch of babies to me. By the way, my dentist didn't come over on a boat recently, he went to college here, so he has the same expenses as everyone else but still charges a decent affordable price and lives a normal life. He is just satisfied with who he is I believe. We are just taught that if we work hard than we need a pay back for it. There are a lot of other cultures that don't have this way of thinking.
This is just food for thought anyway, everyone will have their own opinion but if you stop for a minute and look into it more there are some good lessons from that country that we could apply here. Other countries as well, I just think we are so busy arguing the point that we don't have time to learn anything but new excuses for why we need to be broken.
Careful, Twiggy - the Glen Beck's of the world will brand you an un-patriotic 'apologist' for saying we are not the best at everything!
I came to this country from Europe, and spent most of my working life here; I love it, and became a citizen. I've worked my ass off, and been very successful. There is so much to celebrate and enjoy in this country. The medical system is not one of the best things, and people here need to wise up and realize that several other countries out there have a better system. The only reason it has not changed so far is that the Pharmaceutical companies and the Insurance companies have such a vested interest in preserving the status-quo. We pay more and get less - very un-American! People are freaking out at the thought of the Government running (the payment side of) things, yet they allow Insurance companies to do this. Insurance companies have been rationing care for decades, and making billions in the process.
----
By the way (to AZRiverFan) - I just checked this site http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm (official UK Government page) - the HIGHEST marginal tax rate now in the UK is 40% - not 70% as you mentioned (it USED to be up there, when I left).
Last edited by Steerpike; 08-24-2009 at 01:22 AM..
Cancer is the second leading cause of death in men, and prostate cancer is the most common cancer in men. The mortallity rate for prostate cancer in Canada is 184% higher than in the United States. Someone, somewhere in Canada tonight is needlessly dying of prostate cancer.
That's the biggest problem with socialized heath care. Some government bureaurocrat, who's job is to make sure the budget is met, and some other bureaocrat who's job is to make sure money isn't "wasted", deny life saving or life-bettering care to someone who really needs it. Thousands of Canadians cross into America every year to get care they were denied in their home country.
So while Steerpike may have fully enjoyed the socialized health care from Europe, some other poor soul is literally dying to get American health care.
American health care isn't perfect (what is perfect?), but there is a reason the U.S. leads the world in health care advances. Like I said before, let's work on the few things that unnecessarily drive up costs. Why sell the car when all that is needed is a new tire?
I agree. I think Americans are sheltered and can be defensive. We need to learn and adopt what is succesful in other countries. I also agree their culture predisposes them to achieve higher academically. I feel like we baby our children. I started teaching my children to read at age 2. It wasn't a big deal and they caught on fairly well. Sure, it required some time and discipline on my part but there is nothing saying that we have to wait until kindergarten or first grade before our children learn to read. I didn't learn to read until the first grade. I went to a weak public school. I hear parents complaining about the AIMS test and it makes me laugh because I know what's up. I went to a weak high school and I know my class would have flipped had such a requirement been placed on us. Our high school was a breeze and we didn't learn anything. Our teachers were weak and didn't demand much of us; the parents in the community emphasized athletics more than academics and most of the kids in my high school planned on going to college to join a fraternity or sorrority as opposed to getting an education and making something of themselves. A lof of these kids were rich kids who knew they were going to inherit their wealth or take over the family business so they didn't care about their grades other than just graduating.
With regard to medical education, I disagree but not for the reasons you might think. When I started medical school, I thought of it as a hurdle to become a doctor. I assumed the excess training was just a hurdle to make it difficult to become a physician and that we didn't need all those years to practice. I was wrong. Medicine isn't conceptually difficult like engineering, computer science, mathematics, music etc. BUT it can be challenging in its own way ecause there is a lot of information we are required to know. You can read about a disease or a condition but until you've seen a patient that has that disease and have treated it, it's just not the same. That's the reason they made us work so many hours during residency so that we could see as many patients as possible. I look back and am grateful they made us work all those hours because I would be not be competent had I not done that. Even in medical school, I knew I was never going to be an OBGYN but I still ended up delivering about 100 babies during my OBGYN rotations. At the time, i thought it was a pain in the a@# but now I'm grateful for that experience. The medical education system in the United States is the best in the world and the reason is because of the length of training and its comprehensive nature. I don't know just cardiology, I had to know in depth information regarding OB/GYN, Pediatrics, Neurology, Endocrinology, Orthopedic surgery, Psychiatry, Gastroenterology etc. to pass our licensing exams. We are required to know a lot and that is in the patient's best interest.
Lastly, foreign doctors who practice in the United States must complete a residency in the United States in addition to passing our licensing exams and boards so they are as competent as any doctor and we consider them to be our colleagues. I've learned a lot from foreign doctors. They have better clinical or physical exam skills whereas in the United States, we are taughto interpret imaging and use technology. If you talk to some older American doctors, some of those guys and gals are just brilliant and can diagnose disease based on physical findings alone. Well I ranted and waivered off topic too much in this but it was fun for me to recall these events. I hope you were not too bored.
Last edited by azriverfan.; 08-24-2009 at 01:56 AM..
Cancer is the second leading cause of death in men, and prostate cancer is the most common cancer in men. The mortallity rate for prostate cancer in Canada is 184% higher than in the United States. Someone, somewhere in Canada tonight is needlessly dying of prostate cancer.
That's the biggest problem with socialized heath care. Some government bureaurocrat, who's job is to make sure the budget is met, and some other bureaocrat who's job is to make sure money isn't "wasted", deny life saving or life-bettering care to someone who really needs it. Thousands of Canadians cross into America every year to get care they were denied in their home country.
So while Steerpike may have fully enjoyed the socialized health care from Europe, some other poor soul is literally dying to get American health care.
American health care isn't perfect (what is perfect?), but there is a reason the U.S. leads the world in health care advances. Like I said before, let's work on the few things that unnecessarily drive up costs. Why sell the car when all that is needed is a new tire?
So lets talk about costs. I don't have the exact statistics on hand, but I've seen them, and they are that something like 80% of medical expenditure goes to provide care to people in the last 6 months of their life. Many of these people are incapacitated and incoherent. Unless you explicitly document that you DON'T want invasive care, the medical system is obligated to provide it. Choosing a 'hospice' alternative at the end of life not only costs less, but actually provides a better quality of life to the patient. So let's start asking people to create a 'living will' and document their wishes before they reach that point ... but wait ... 'end of life councelling' is now being branded as nazi-style death-panels by the right-wing nut-jobs ... Looks like that tire isn't going to get fixed after all ...
The US may well be ahead of Canada on Prostate cancer; that's great news. But overall, the US is not ahead of other countries in terms of lives saved.
And as far as costs - take a look at this recent study (Harvard). Conclusion: "Using a conservative definition, 62.1% of all bankruptcies in 2007 were medical; 92% of these medical debtors had medical debts over $5000, or 10% of pretax family income. The rest met criteria for medical bankruptcy because they had lost significant income due to illness or mortgaged a home to pay medical bills. Most medical debtors were well educated, owned homes, and had middle-class occupations. Three quarters had health insurance." How can people with medical insurance be forced to declare bankruptcy? Because the coverage sucks.
I agree. I think Americans are sheltered and can be defensive. We need to learn and adopt what is succesful in other countries. I also agree their culture predisposes them to achieve higher academically. I feel like we baby our children. I started teaching my children to read at age 2. It wasn't a big deal and they caught on fairly well. Sure, it required some time and discipline on my part but there is nothing saying that we have to wait until kindergarten or first grade before our children learn to read. I didn't learn to read until the first grade. I went to a weak public school. I hear parents complaining about the AIMS test and it makes me laugh because I know what's up. I went to a weak high school and I know my class would have flipped had such a requirement been placed on us. Our high school was a breeze and we didn't learn anything. Our teachers were weak and didn't demand much of us; the parents in the community emphasized athletics more than academics and most of the kids in my high school planned on going to college to join a fraternity or sorrority as opposed to getting an education and making something of themselves. A lof of these kids were rich kids who knew they were going to inherit their wealth or take over the family business so they didn't care about their grades other than just graduating.
With regard to medical education, I disagree but not for the reasons you might think. When I started medical school, I thought of it as a hurdle to become a doctor. I assumed the excess training was just a hurdle to make it difficult to become a physician and that we didn't need all those years to practice. I was wrong. Medicine isn't conceptually difficult like engineering, computer science, mathematics, music etc. BUT it can be challenging in its own way ecause there is a lot of information we are required to know. You can read about a disease or a condition but until you've seen a patient that has that disease and have treated it, it's just not the same. That's the reason they made us work so many hours during residency so that we could see as many patients as possible. I look back and am grateful they made us work all those hours because I would be not be competent had I not done that. Even in medical school, I knew I was never going to be an OBGYN but I still ended up delivering about 100 babies during my OBGYN rotations. At the time, i thought it was a pain in the a@# but now I'm grateful for that experience. The medical education system in the United States is the best in the world and the reason is because of the length of training and its comprehensive nature. I don't know just cardiology, I had to know in depth information regarding OB/GYN, Pediatrics, Neurology, Endocrinology, Orthopedic surgery, Psychiatry, Gastroenterology etc. to pass our licensing exams. We are required to know a lot and that is in the patient's best interest.
Lastly, foreign doctors who practice in the United States must complete a residency in the United States in addition to passing our licensing exams and boards so they are as competent as any doctor and we consider them to be our colleagues. I've learned a lot from foreign doctors. They have better clinical or physical exam skills whereas in the United States, we are taughto interpret imaging and use technology. If you talk to some older American doctors, some of those guys and gals are just brilliant and can diagnose disease based on physical findings alone. Well I ranted and waivered off topic too much in this but it was fun for me to recall these events. I hope you were not too bored.
Wow, good post and I agree with everything you've said. I too taught my kids early and it really pays off. I had the same feeling in high school as you did, I wasn't really being prepared for what I needed to know in college.
You sound like you have a good work ethic, and I hope in the future thats what we can instill in our children.
I have said this before but if I'm ever in need of a specialist I hope they are as thorough as you are. I can tell by your post that you do a lot of behind the scene work.
What's funny is I still go to the same doctor I've had for 25 years for the same reason you stated. He is a son of a *****, with a bad bed side manner but he can diagnose anything in 5 min with no tests. I drive far to see him but it's always worth it. Its like I'm see through, lol, he sends me for test after he tells me what it is and he has never been wrong. I've tried a lot of other docs only to follow up with him to find out what was really wrong.
I had a gyno give me an anti depres. med for what she thought was an ulcer caused by early meno, felt weird so I went to him and he said, what the hell did she do that for? Looks like gallstones to me, haha, sure enough after an ultrasound I had three small stones trying to pass. I was happy not to be crazy yet. lol Ganglion cyst>cancer by another doc>walked into his office and he laughed and said "we use to hit those with books to make them go away", not cancer, stop touching it and it will go away>was gone in a week.
Husband put on ulcer meds>went to him, kidney stones>the list goes on and on. I'm scared to move away from him, I always feel confident in him.
Careful, Twiggy - the Glen Beck's of the world will brand you an un-patriotic 'apologist' for saying we are not the best at everything!
I came to this country from Europe, and spent most of my working life here; I love it, and became a citizen. I've worked my ass off, and been very successful. There is so much to celebrate and enjoy in this country. The medical system is not one of the best things, and people here need to wise up and realize that several other countries out there have a better system. The only reason it has not changed so far is that the Pharmaceutical companies and the Insurance companies have such a vested interest in preserving the status-quo. We pay more and get less - very un-American! People are freaking out at the thought of the Government running (the payment side of) things, yet they allow Insurance companies to do this. Insurance companies have been rationing care for decades, and making billions in the process.
----
By the way (to AZRiverFan) - I just checked this site HM Revenue & Customs: Rates and Allowances - Income Tax (official UK Government page) - the HIGHEST marginal tax rate now in the UK is 40% - not 70% as you mentioned (it USED to be up there, when I left).
Thats exactly what I mean, your a perfect example. You come here with your background and can clearly see what's useful and what isn't.
Nice post!
"something like 80% of medical expenditure goes to provide care to people in the last 6 months of their life."
The average cost depends on where you live. The most expensive city (New York City) costs on average $35,838, while the least expensive city (Witchita Falls) costs on average $10,913. If that is 80% of one's lifetime medical expenses, then they have had very little medical care in their life.
"Many of these people are incapacitated and incoherent."
Says who? While I'm sure some are "incapacitated and incoherent", most are not. (What an ignorant statement!)
"Unless you explicitly document that you DON'T want invasive care, the medical system is obligated to provide it."
And that is the way it should be. Just because someone is old, doesn't mean that, whatever the medical issue is, that it should automatically be the end of their life.
"Choosing a 'hospice' alternative at the end of life not only costs less, but actually provides a better quality of life to the patient."
That may be so, but I think it depends on each patient and what their situation is.
"let's start asking people to create a 'living will' and document their wishes before they reach that point.... How can people with medical insurance be forced to declare bankruptcy?"
Yes, people should take personal responsibility and, if they have specific wishes, they need to create a will that says those wishes. As I said before, people also need to take personal responsibity and save money and pay off debt. That's the civil society.
"but wait ... 'end of life councelling' is now being branded as nazi-style death-panels by the right-wing nut-jobs"
First, Nancy Pelosi was the first to call anyone a Nazi in this debate, calling those who oppose the proposed socialist health care plan, "Mutant Nazi racists from hell" and "inbred church-going rednecks." So let's not forget where this Nazi name-calling started. Second, let's also not forget what Nazi means (translated to english): National Socialist German Workers' Party. Yes, the Nazi's were socialists. So if you want to compare Nazi health-care policies to the proposed socialist health care in this country, that is an apples-to-apples comparison and a debate I'm more than ready to have (you might be surprised at just how similar they are).
As far as death panels, President Obama brought back the VA "death book" so it is not far-fetched at all to think "death panels" may be a part of the proposed socialist health care plan. In fact, in one proposal that was in the house, it was specifically stated.
Besides, how cold is this?! Why would we be even considering telling someone that they can't have some life-saving or life-bettering health care?
"But overall, the US is not ahead of other countries in terms of lives saved."
Says who?
"Looks like that tire isn't going to get fixed after all"
You missed the analogy. I want to fix the tire, because the rest of the car is fine. You want to trade in a perfectly good car, because it has a flat tire. That's the analogy.
Is end of life counseling done only after a terminal diagnosis? Does anyone know this? We had hospice come in to help care for my dad and it was terrible! They did nothing but try and drug the hell out of him and check his pulse. I wished I had never called them.
As for older people, one thing I hate is the way the medical field treats my mother. She is 80 and everywhere we go they act like she's on her death bed as well which is further from the truth. She even has great teeth. They always make statements like, just give her what she wants now, she hates it. She still eats well and cares about her health and wants another 20 years outta life. But it seems we give up on anyone over the age of 70.
She would kill someone who gave her end of life counsel at this point. haha
"Is end of life counseling done only after a terminal diagnosis?"
In one of the proposals that was in the house, "end of life" counceling would be mandatory at 55.
The VA "death book" is a 52 page end-of-life planning document called "Your Life, Your Choices" and was authored by Dr. Robert Pearlman, who has advocated assisted-suicide before the Surpreme Court. The book has a spreadsheet that lists different scenerios, and the veteran is supposed to mark which ones are "not worth living." I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the age that veterans will begin receiving the book is 65.
"But it seems we give up on anyone over the age of 70."
It's very sad.
I'm glad your mother is doing great! You are only as old as you feel, and it sounds like she feels very young.
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