The School Pension Problems Cometh! (Penn Hills, Lebanon: renting, insurance, attorney)

[Joe Magarac]

Now that we just let schools get as much money as humanly possible to pay teachers these wild wages and huge pensions, we are stuck. It is going to be one heck of an issue over the next few years. I have no idea how it will play out.

Herbert Stein's law will tell you how it will play out. "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop."

This really isn't complicated. The auto companies made big pension promises to unionized autoworkers because the costs of those promises were relatively insignificant at the time they were made. When the costs became significant, the auto companies and the unions both agreed to stop what they'd been doing and try a different model going forward. The auto companies still exist, and they still make decent cars; they've just changed how they pay their employees.

Likewise, school boards made big pension promises to unionized teachers because the costs of those promises were relatively insignificant (5% or less of the overall budget) at the time they were made. Now, costs are becoming significant, and the school boards - urged on by a Pennsylvania with a Republican governor and a Republican senate and a Republican house - will change how they've been paying teachers. The school districts will still exist, and they'll still teach kids; they'll just change how they pay their teachers.

I recognize that it's fun to play Chicken Little, and the pension crisis is in fact a crisis, but there's no need to make things seem worse than they are. Remember Herbert Stein: "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop."

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by Joe Magarac

Herbert Stein's law will tell you how it will play out. "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop."

This really isn't complicated. The auto companies made big pension promises to unionized autoworkers because the costs of those promises were relatively insignificant at the time they were made. When the costs became significant, the auto companies and the unions both agreed to stop what they'd been doing and try a different model going forward. The auto companies still exist, and they still make decent cars; they've just changed how they pay their employees.

Likewise, school boards made big pension promises to unionized teachers because the costs of those promises were relatively insignificant (5% or less of the overall budget) at the time they were made. Now, costs are becoming significant, and the school boards - urged on by a Pennsylvania with a Republican governor and a Republican senate and a Republican house - will change how they've been paying teachers. The school districts will still exist, and they'll still teach kids; they'll just change how they pay their teachers.

I recognize that it's fun to play Chicken Little, and the pension crisis is in fact a crisis, but there's no need to make things seem worse than they are. Remember Herbert Stein: "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop."

I hate it when a poster uses logic on this forum.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by HeavenWood

We certainly need to streamline the funding process, and part of trimming the fat is going to involve mergers whether you like it or not. A million tiny little school districts is extremely redundant and unsustainable. Fox Chapel (and to a lesser extent, Quaker Valley) are wonderful examples of how diversifying mergers need not necessarily lead to chaos.

Great, let's make every High School have a senior class of 600-700 students. I know I had a great time at mine, went to my 30 yr reunion and met 10 fellow classmates for the first time.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by Copanut

Great, let's make every High School have a senior class of 600-700 students. I know I had a great time at mine, went to my 30 yr reunion and met 10 fellow classmates for the first time.

A happy medium between Brentwood and North Allegheny. You're overlooking it.

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

Keep in mind, MOST of the time a merger happens the district suffers. That has been the case in our region. Don't think for a minute parents want mergers. More bussing, watered down schools and usually lowering test scores. Look at some of those disastrous mergers in our region and how devastating it was to those living in places like Churchill and Edgewood.

You mention one merger, which forced on the districts that became Woodland Hills by the federal government. Center and Monaca decided on their own to merge in 2010 and it seems to have worked out well. Besides Woodland Hills, what are some of the disastrous mergers that have taken place?

During the 1960s, there was a decline in the number of Pennsylvania school districts from 2,277 to 669. This was followed by a second decline in the 1970s from 669 to 505 districts. The 505 were reduced to 501 as the result of federal antidiscrimination litigation that lasted from 1970 to 1981. By my calculation, the Center Monaca merger was the only merger since Woodland Hills in the entire state and made a total of 500 districts.

There have been studies done of potential mergers. Many mergers in the past have taken years to consolidate school buildings, which makes the most sense. Administration and school boards can be consolidated first. Do you really need 500 superintendents in PA? Maryland gets by with 17 districts and 17 superintendents.

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by Copanut

Great, let's make every High School have a senior class of 600-700 students. I know I had a great time at mine, went to my 30 yr reunion and met 10 fellow classmates for the first time.

I had around 600 in my graduating class and there were many senior classes larger than that in the 1970s.

[Goinback2011]

Yep, I attended Mt. Lebanon High School in the early 70's. Almost all of my classes had 45+ students. Some classes had over 100 students. We were ranked in the top 5 high schools in the state at the time. We had students going to MIT and Cal Tech after their junior year.

[mountainlove]

Is the Pension crisis real? Definitely. Is it a new issue? No. Have school districts known about it and ignored it for a long time? Yes.

Back in 2003, the PA legislature allowed employer (read school district and taxpayer) contributions to be kept artificially low in order to avoid a huge spike in the contributions because of the combination of an economic recession and the increases in pension benefits. They pushed off the increase for 10 more years with the hopes that the stock market and economy would surely come back and those gains would take care of the need to increase taxes.

As we know, the economy did not come storming back, and that break for school districts to pay reduced amounts into PSERS during the last 10 years is over. It is noteworthy that during that time, teachers were not given the same break and did pay their fair share to their pension each year for the last 10 years, and prior to that. Districts and the PA legislature decided to delay the payment on this, and now the time is here to pay up.

Between the increased baby boomers retiring and straining the system, and people living longer there is no doubt that the pension cannot sustain itself as is. Steps are already being done with new teachers having different choices when hired as it pertains to their participation and benefits from the PSERS system. There is a definite need to do more and it will continue to unfold.

With regards to statements on teachers being overpaid, I have to ask - do we as a state (and country) pay more per year to educate one child or to incarcerate one adult? Would I have walked away from a 6 figure salary, finance job on Wall Street to move back to Pittsburgh in order to teach my 6th grade students if it wasn't a good salary? No. I work hard, and do the best I can for my students and believe that I do a good job. Everyone on here can understand, that often times you do have to pay some money to get quality teachers.

With regards to statements on the link between classroom size and student achievement, I just have to ask all of you on here - how many of you are parents like I am lucky enough to be? Is it easier to be two parents raising a child, two parents raising two children, or one parent raising 3 children? This does not require research (though research exists), but is an easy concept to grasp and plays itself out daily in the class room. All kids benefit from one on one, and small group instruction.

[sparrowmint]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

Keep in mind, MOST of the time a merger happens the district suffers. That has been the case in our region. Don't think for a minute parents want mergers. More bussing, watered down schools and usually lowering test scores. Look at some of those disastrous mergers in our region and how devastating it was to those living in places like Churchill and Edgewood.

No sympathy here. I am all for temporary whining if it forces people to address the larger picture issues that are causing any "pain" with these mergers. School boards in Ontario often have hundreds and hundreds of schools and hundreds of thousands of students, and as a whole, the Ontario education system is much better than Pennsylvania's. Oh, and the Ontario Teacher Pension Plan, despite some minor problems, is rich enough that it has owned sports teams (Toronto Raptors + Toronto Maple Leafs), stadiums, and crazy amounts of real estate, shopping centers, and so on. These tiny school boards that exist only to keep rich white kids away from poor (often minority) children, each with their own full administrative team? They're a joke.

[squarian]

Originally Posted by sparrowmint

School boards in Ontario often have hundreds and hundreds of schools and hundreds of thousands of students, and as a whole, the Ontario education system is much better than Pennsylvania's...These tiny school boards that exist only to keep rich white kids away from poor (often minority) children, each with their own full administrative team? They're a joke.

Ontario has advantages that PA doesn't. Like, say, a simple, direct and efficient way for political decisions to be made when needed. There, if she's convinced of the need, the Minister of Education can get a reform passed into law and action very quickly, as long as the department civil servants can produce a convincing white paper and she can get the Cabinet and Premier to allocate it parliamentary time. Alas, the local version of checks and gridlock here means that even an obviously sensible, no-brain step, like terminating the least-viable zombie districts by merger, is nearly impossible to achieve. Duquesne SD, for instance, has been a rotting corpse for at least a decade, and the state Secretary of Education can't even choose a shovel to dig its grave.