Any Possibility of Pittsburgh Buses Switching to Natural Gas? (West Mifflin: 2015, house)

[zipman]

Is there any possibility of Pittsburgh buses switching to use natural gas?

I know LA made the switch to use only natural gas buses over the last 10 years:

"What was behind LA Metro’s decision to change to natural gas? Reducing emissions while saving on fuel costs. Since converting to natural gas, officials estimate that they have cut the release of particulates from the bus fleet by 80 percent and greenhouse gases by about 300,000 pounds each day. In what was one of America’s most smog-plagued areas, this is especially noteworthy. In addition to the savings for the environment, officials estimate that LA Metro is realizing a 10 to 20 percent operational cost savings on fuel alone."

I found this article from February saying the Port Authority was considering natural gas from Oakland to Downtown.

Driving the kids back and forth from school I am constantly hitting the "recycled air" button (won't stay on very long in the winter) in the car to keep fumes out.

From an uniformed perspective, it would seem that with the air pollution issues here, widespread use of public transit, and abundance of nearby natural gas, that this would seem like an obvious move.

I assume the price tag to convert is the biggest limiting factor ... is there much local interest and any possibility of getting a federal grant to do something like this? Any idea how LA was able to effectively finance the change back when natural gas prices weren't so low?

[guy2073]

When a bus can reach 1,000,000 miles or more, the conversion cost per mile is not very high. I know pat just ordered alot of buses, I wonder if they ordered them using natural gas. They use to have some years ago, but I don't recall seeing them lately.

[PIT2MAD]

I recall several years ago when PAT ran the ad scheme on the side of the buses with the pictogram riddles there were several references to cleaner burning buses. I have assumed since those days that at least the newer buses were running some sort of clean fuel?

There's a line item almost every year in the PennDOT budget for vehicle procurement, I don't think it would be that hard to simply decide to start phasing in cleaner burning buses over time.

[RyanR]

Buses are normally diesel. Conversion to LPG or natural gas requires an extensive engine overhaul/upgrade and even afterwards, don't plan on the engine lasting as long as if it were left as a diesel. It may be more cost effective to replace the diesel engine right from the get-go. These engines are not cheap! I'd look to this as being the main reason the conversion may be cost prohibitive.

[guy2073]

I know you can order the engine from the manufacture burning natural gas. When you are spending 30 grand + on an engine, what is 10 grand more. The break even point would be about 300,000 miles. The numbers I am using are for a tandem dump truck I maybe ordering, but I am sure they are comparable.

[MountainDewGuy]

PAT has been struggling to get the real time tracking system in all the buses, so I don't think they have the competence to do anything remotely close to what you suggested.

[armourereric]

Remeber that fuel in LA is significantly higher than Pittsburgh, the 20% fuel savings they experience there, may mathematically be break even in Pittsburgh, today in LA, Regular Unleaded is 2.69, Diesel 3.29

[zipman]

Originally Posted by armourereric

Remeber that fuel in LA is significantly higher than Pittsburgh, the 20% fuel savings they experience there, may mathematically be break even in Pittsburgh, today in LA, Regular Unleaded is 2.69, Diesel 3.29

Any chance that natural gas prices are lower here in Western PA than CA?

[Tinare]

From April 2014:

The Port Authority of Allegheny County has explored converting parts of its fleet of transit buses to CNG vehicles — it already has converted some of its diesel buses to hybrid electric vehicles. But a 2012 EQT Corp. analysis concluded it would cost the Port Authority $20.8 million in upfront costs to start the conversion, which was not feasible despite estimated annual fuel savings of $2.9 million per year.

Of that $20.8 million, $18 million would have been needed to renovate and retrofit the East Liberty bus garage and the Manchester repair facility, and to supply them with refueling stations. Port Authority garages in Ross and West Mifflin could not be converted to house CNG vehicles, according to the report, and the Collier garage could not be converted without losing a significant amount of employee parking.

A question of conversion


From February 2015:

Buses that will run along Port Authority of Allegheny County's proposed bus rapid-transit line from Downtown to Oakland will be fueled by natural gas, the agency's board chairman said Friday.

Chairman Bob Hurley announced at a Port Authority meeting that he established a committee that will study locations for a new Port Authority garage that could serve compressed natural gas buses, a project that could cost $70 million to $80 million. The committee will consist of fellow board members Rob Kania and Tom Donatelli as well as industry professionals ....

Hurley and Port Authority CEO Ellen McLean said natural gas buses or garages are at least three to four years away.
“We think in the long term there will be a cost-savings and environmental value,” Hurley said. “We're sitting in a market where natural gas is being produced and we ought to be supporting that economic driver.”


Read more: Port Authority focusing on natural-gas bus fleet for proposed rapid transit line | TribLIVE
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Looks like they are looking into it, but that upfront costs (beyond the busses themselves) are high for converting the fleet.

[Blackbeauty212]

PAT back in circa mid-90's had CNG buses - I think it was only 5 or 10 total. However I remember reading that then CNG buses were not efficient as Diesel in Pittsburgh because they Sucked on the Hills. Again this was the Mid-90's assessment. Today I'm not sure if CNG technology has progressed to the point PAT should give it another go or not.