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Old 08-16-2019, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Polish Hill, Pittsburgh, PA
30,352 posts, read 67,610,923 times
Reputation: 16053

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I've done some more analysis below on a "City vs. City" sub-forum thread using the most recently-available population estimates for each jurisdiction.

This varies because for some reason the U.S. Census Bureau ignores doing annual population estimates for PA's townships the way it does for its boroughs and cities.

Here's how we'd look if we just annexed the municipalities contiguous with the current city limits (including water boundaries):

Pittsburgh 2018 Estimated Population: 301,048 in 55.38 square miles (5,436/square mile)
Penn Hills Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 41,838 in 19.12 square miles (2,188/square mile)
Mount Lebanon Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 32,760 in 6.08 square miles (5,388/square mile)
Ross Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 30,869 in 14.47 square miles (2,133/square mile)
Shaler Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 28,481 in 11.07 square miles (2,573/square mile)
West Mifflin 2018 Estimated Population: 19,703 in 14.21 square miles (1,387/square mile)
Baldwin 2018 Estimated Population: 19,464 in 5.77 square miles (3,373/square mile)
Scott Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 16,847 in 3.91 square miles (4,309/square mile)
Wilkinsburg 2018 Estimated Population: 15,448 in 2.25 square miles (6,866/square mile)
Robinson Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 13,657 in 15.22 square miles (897/square mile)
Whitehall 2018 Estimated Population: 13,648 in 3.33 square miles (4,098/square mile)
Munhall 2018 Estimated Population: 11,081 in 2.30 square miles (4,818/square mile)
Brentwood 2018 Estimated Population: 9,329 in 1.45 square miles (6,434/square mile)
O'Hara Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 8,809 in 7.02 square miles (1,255/square mile)
Swissvale 2018 Estimated Population: 8,689 in 1.20 square miles (7,241/square mile)
Dormont 2018 Estimated Population: 8,319 in 0.76 square miles (10,946/square mile)
Castle Shannon 2018 Estimated Population: 8,255 in 1.60 square miles (5,159/square mile)
Bellevue 2018 Estimated Population: 8,097 in 1.01 square miles (8,017/square mile)
Kennedy Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 8,058 in 5.48 square miles (1,470/square mile)
Carnegie 2018 Estimated Population: 7,844 in 1.62 square miles (4,842/square mile)
Stowe Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 6,282 in 1.98 square miles (3,173/square mile)
McKees Rocks 2018 Estimated Population: 5,885 in 1.06 square miles (5,552/square mile)
Crafton 2018 Estimated Population: 5,763 in 1.14 square miles (5,055/square mile)
Green Tree 2018 Estimated Population: 4,854 in 2.08 square miles (2,334/square mile)
Millvale 2018 Estimated Population: 3,593 in 0.62 square miles (5,795/square mile)
Etna 2018 Estimated Population: 3,338 in 0.73 square miles (4,573/square mile)
Sharpsburg 2018 Estimated Population: 3,337 in 0.48 square miles (6,952/square mile)
Reserve Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 3,300 in 2.06 square miles (1,602/square mile)
Mount Oliver 2018 Estimated Population: 3,293 in 0.34 square miles (9,685/square mile)
Ingram 2018 Estimated Population: 3,225 in 0.43 square miles (7,500/square mile)
Homestead 2018 Estimated Population: 3,138 in 0.57 square miles (5,505/square mile)
Edgewood 2018 Estimated Population: 3,012 in 0.59 square miles (5,105/square mile)
Aspinwall 2018 Estimated Population: 2,712 in 0.35 square miles (7,749/square mile)
Baldwin Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 2,039 in 0.51 square miles (3,998/square mile)
West Homestead 2018 Estimated Population: 1,881 in 0.92 square miles (2,045/square mile)
Thornburg 2018 Estimated Population: 440 in 0.43 square miles (1,023/square mile)
Rosslyn Farms 2018 Estimated Population: 415 in 0.56 square miles (741/square mile)

"New Pittsburgh": 668,751 in 188.10 square land miles (3,555/square mile)

^ That's a pitiful population density, especially considering I only used LAND square mileage in all of these calculations. I mean "New Pittsburgh" would also have a lot of ravines and rugged terrain that could not be developed; however, even accounting for that we might be able to "cheat" our way up to 4,000/square mile population density. That 668,751 figure is roughly half of the 2018 estimated population of 1,218,452 for Allegheny County overall. The majority of the above municipalities are declining in population, too, which means that density would only be decreasing.


Pittsburgh, at an estimated population of 301,048 in 2018, is currently estimated to be the nation's 66th-largest city.

New Pittsburgh, at an estimated population of 668,751 in 2018, would be the nation's 25th-largest city---a smidge below Nashville and a bit above Portland, OR.

For comparison purposes Nashville houses an estimated 669,053 (2018) within 473.3 square miles of land (1,414/square mile) (This seems incorrect, to me, as Nashville is supposedly this poster child of new urbanism, no?)

For comparison purposes Portland houses an estimated 653,115 (2018) within 133 square miles of land (4,911/square mile)


P.S. This analysis was done just for "fun" (yes, we nerds find this amusing!) I mean I know if Pittsburgh tried to gobble up Etna tyovan4 would be running up and down Grant Street with a protest sign.

I wish Pittsburgh could even just annex the "struggling" suburbs---Wilkinsburg and Mt. Oliver---both of which would greatly benefit from being part of the city. Most of these other suburban jurisdictions seem to be able to handle themselves well, despite their declining populations.

Last edited by SteelCityRising; 08-16-2019 at 10:03 AM.. Reason: Bolded municipal names to make them easier to read/identify.
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Old 08-16-2019, 08:59 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
18,026 posts, read 18,396,887 times
Reputation: 11549
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post
I wish Pittsburgh could even just annex the "struggling" suburbs---Wilkinsburg and Mt. Oliver---both of which would greatly benefit from being part of the city. Most of these other suburban jurisdictions seem to be able to handle themselves well, despite their declining populations.
I wish Pittsburgh and Wilkinsburg would come to an agreement. Both would benefit greatly within 5 years. Would be great if Wilkinsburg could be saved. There is some nice old buildings waiting for someone to save them from destruction.
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (lovely hills but no ocean...)
1,185 posts, read 631,661 times
Reputation: 1334
Quote:
Originally Posted by gg View Post
I wish Pittsburgh and Wilkinsburg would come to an agreement. Both would benefit greatly within 5 years. Would be great if Wilkinsburg could be saved. There is some nice old buildings waiting for someone to save them from destruction.
I agree on that. Though I'm in support of these million little municipalities because it makes this area unique.

I don't get the separate Greentree Boro/Greentree City thing. Same with Mount Oliver...
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Polish Hill, Pittsburgh, PA
30,352 posts, read 67,610,923 times
Reputation: 16053
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalewskimm View Post
I agree on that. Though I'm in support of these million little municipalities because it makes this area unique.
There aren't any taxpayer cost savings that could be achieved via consolidating municipalities so there wouldn't have to be 130 mayors, 130 city/borough councils or township boards of supervisors, 130 police departments, 130 fire departments, 130 DPW's, etc. in a county smaller in land area than Jacksonville, FL?
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,180 posts, read 103,138,643 times
Reputation: 33222
Many of those positions are unpaid or pay a token salary. Lots of fire departments are volunteer.
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Etna, PA
1,464 posts, read 879,969 times
Reputation: 1615
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post
I mean I know if Pittsburgh tried to gobble up Etna tyovan4 would be running up and down Grant Street with a protest sign.
Oh, it would be an insurgency.
I've spent time in Northern Ireland... I'm not sure if Etna Liberation Army or Allegheny Republican Army would be better names for my group

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post
There aren't any taxpayer cost savings that could be achieved via consolidating municipalities so there wouldn't have to be 130 mayors, 130 city/borough councils or township boards of supervisors, 130 police departments, 130 fire departments, 130 DPW's, etc. in a county smaller in land area than Jacksonville, FL?
Regionalized consolidation of suburban municipalities - yes.
Absorption into the Peoples Republic of Pittsburgh - no.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Weirton, W. Va.
417 posts, read 151,873 times
Reputation: 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post
I've done some more analysis below on a "City vs. City" sub-forum thread using the most recently-available population estimates for each jurisdiction.

This varies because for some reason the U.S. Census Bureau ignores doing annual population estimates for PA's townships the way it does for its boroughs and cities.

Here's how we'd look if we just annexed the municipalities contiguous with the current city limits (including water boundaries):

Pittsburgh 2018 Estimated Population: 301,048 in 55.38 square miles (5,436/square mile)
Penn Hills Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 41,838 in 19.12 square miles (2,188/square mile)
Mount Lebanon Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 32,760 in 6.08 square miles (5,388/square mile)
Ross Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 30,869 in 14.47 square miles (2,133/square mile)
Shaler Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 28,481 in 11.07 square miles (2,573/square mile)
West Mifflin 2018 Estimated Population: 19,703 in 14.21 square miles (1,387/square mile)
Baldwin 2018 Estimated Population: 19,464 in 5.77 square miles (3,373/square mile)
Scott Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 16,847 in 3.91 square miles (4,309/square mile)
Wilkinsburg 2018 Estimated Population: 15,448 in 2.25 square miles (6,866/square mile)
Robinson Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 13,657 in 15.22 square miles (897/square mile)
Whitehall 2018 Estimated Population: 13,648 in 3.33 square miles (4,098/square mile)
Munhall 2018 Estimated Population: 11,081 in 2.30 square miles (4,818/square mile)
Brentwood 2018 Estimated Population: 9,329 in 1.45 square miles (6,434/square mile)
O'Hara Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 8,809 in 7.02 square miles (1,255/square mile)
Swissvale 2018 Estimated Population: 8,689 in 1.20 square miles (7,241/square mile)
Dormont 2018 Estimated Population: 8,319 in 0.76 square miles (10,946/square mile)
Castle Shannon 2018 Estimated Population: 8,255 in 1.60 square miles (5,159/square mile)
Bellevue 2018 Estimated Population: 8,097 in 1.01 square miles (8,017/square mile)
Kennedy Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 8,058 in 5.48 square miles (1,470/square mile)
Carnegie 2018 Estimated Population: 7,844 in 1.62 square miles (4,842/square mile)
Stowe Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 6,282 in 1.98 square miles (3,173/square mile)
McKees Rocks 2018 Estimated Population: 5,885 in 1.06 square miles (5,552/square mile)
Crafton 2018 Estimated Population: 5,763 in 1.14 square miles (5,055/square mile)
Green Tree 2018 Estimated Population: 4,854 in 2.08 square miles (2,334/square mile)
Millvale 2018 Estimated Population: 3,593 in 0.62 square miles (5,795/square mile)
Etna 2018 Estimated Population: 3,338 in 0.73 square miles (4,573/square mile)
Sharpsburg 2018 Estimated Population: 3,337 in 0.48 square miles (6,952/square mile)
Reserve Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 3,300 in 2.06 square miles (1,602/square mile)
Mount Oliver 2018 Estimated Population: 3,293 in 0.34 square miles (9,685/square mile)
Ingram 2018 Estimated Population: 3,225 in 0.43 square miles (7,500/square mile)
Homestead 2018 Estimated Population: 3,138 in 0.57 square miles (5,505/square mile)
Edgewood 2018 Estimated Population: 3,012 in 0.59 square miles (5,105/square mile)
Aspinwall 2018 Estimated Population: 2,712 in 0.35 square miles (7,749/square mile)
Baldwin Township 2017 ACS Estimated Population: 2,039 in 0.51 square miles (3,998/square mile)
West Homestead 2018 Estimated Population: 1,881 in 0.92 square miles (2,045/square mile)
Thornburg 2018 Estimated Population: 440 in 0.43 square miles (1,023/square mile)
Rosslyn Farms 2018 Estimated Population: 415 in 0.56 square miles (741/square mile)

"New Pittsburgh": 668,751 in 188.10 square land miles (3,555/square mile)

^ That's a pitiful population density, especially considering I only used LAND square mileage in all of these calculations. I mean "New Pittsburgh" would also have a lot of ravines and rugged terrain that could not be developed; however, even accounting for that we might be able to "cheat" our way up to 4,000/square mile population density. That 668,751 figure is roughly half of the 2018 estimated population of 1,218,452 for Allegheny County overall. The majority of the above municipalities are declining in population, too, which means that density would only be decreasing.


Pittsburgh, at an estimated population of 301,048 in 2018, is currently estimated to be the nation's 66th-largest city.

New Pittsburgh, at an estimated population of 668,751 in 2018, would be the nation's 25th-largest city---a smidge below Nashville and a bit above Portland, OR.

For comparison purposes Nashville houses an estimated 669,053 (2018) within 473.3 square miles of land (1,414/square mile) (This seems incorrect, to me, as Nashville is supposedly this poster child of new urbanism, no?)

For comparison purposes Portland houses an estimated 653,115 (2018) within 133 square miles of land (4,911/square mile)


P.S. This analysis was done just for "fun" (yes, we nerds find this amusing!) I mean I know if Pittsburgh tried to gobble up Etna tyovan4 would be running up and down Grant Street with a protest sign.

I wish Pittsburgh could even just annex the "struggling" suburbs---Wilkinsburg and Mt. Oliver---both of which would greatly benefit from being part of the city. Most of these other suburban jurisdictions seem to be able to handle themselves well, despite their declining populations.

Other than the city itself Allegheny County is not very dense for an urban county over 1 million people. If those annexations happened Pittsburgh would be less dense than Columbus which is 3,960 residents per square mile and roughly 35 square miles larger land wise than the newly annexed Pittsburgh.

Before 1906 it was easy to bring annexations to a vote in Pennsylvania. The hard part was then getting the majority of both municipalities to vote yes for annexation. The reason why you don’t see annexation talked about or even discussed for a vote is what happened in 1906 when Allegheny city merged with Pittsburgh and became the north side.

Allegheny City was affluent, had an excellent business district better than downtown Pittsburgh and the wealthy residents lived there. The merger was brought up for a vote in 1906. Pittsburgh needed the merger because Govt officials were afraid it would always compete with Pittsburgh. The state made an amendment to the annexation law just for this vote that if the majority of voters said yes to the vote in both municipalities combined it would go through. Needless to say Allegheny city had 150,000 residents in 1906 and Pittsburgh had between 300-400K. The vote happened and over 80 percent of Allegheny city voters said “no” to the merger with Pittsburgh city. Pittsburgh city voters said yes by similar sweeping amounts. Because the state amended the annexation law for this vote it went through. The population of the north side went from 150,000 residents in 1906 to under 40,000 in 2019. Wealthy residents left in droves. Neighborhoods like chateau, Manchester, north shore and deutchtown were residential densely packed destroyed by highways. The central north side business and market district was destroyed by the city of Pittsburgh to make way for Allegheny center mall.

So yes even posters on here said the merger did not benefit the north side at all. And believe it or not views are better from perry hilltop fineview and river view park. Pittsburgh just let it decline.

As a result, nobody trusts the city of Pittsburgh and rightfully so. It is the most livable city but no neighboring municipalities are running to merge with it, even wilkinsburg. And that speaks volumes of how livable Pittsburgh itself really is and how the city government and city authorities cannot be trusted. If the north side merger was a success back then these other mergers probably would’ve happened by now. Since the city blew it back then there is present day distaste for mergers carried over 100 years.

And again all the municipalities you stated. What would be the benefit to merge with the city of Pittsburgh?
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Great White North Hills
11,396 posts, read 14,296,982 times
Reputation: 9069
There would be bicycle lanes EVERYWHERE!!!
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Old 08-16-2019, 01:21 PM
 
22 posts, read 2,469 times
Reputation: 41
I live in Upper St. Clair, which does not appear to be on this list.
Thus, if this fantasy ever came to pass ( God forbid ! ), at least I wouldn't have to worry about being a part of the one party People's Bicycle Republic of Pittsburgh, and being "governed" by it's hapless, clueless, self-serving political hackdom.
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Old 08-16-2019, 01:46 PM
 
2,544 posts, read 2,053,223 times
Reputation: 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by USC1986 View Post
I live in Upper St. Clair, which does not appear to be on this list.
Thus, if this fantasy ever came to pass ( God forbid ! ), at least I wouldn't have to worry about being a part of the one party People's Bicycle Republic of Pittsburgh, and being "governed" by it's hapless, clueless, self-serving political hackdom.
I am in usc also, could you imagine the line of attorneys at the court house the day after the announcement.
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