Property Taxes in Upper St Clair are an ass kicker (Pittsburgh: for sale, real estate)

[Stockton.]

I have relocated to Pittsburgh from the Atlanta suburbs for work and have recently been looking at buying a house. I have been looking in Upper St Clair as my wife has relatives there and the school is supposed to be one of the best in the state. We were looking at houses that were about $400-450K and were surprised at how nice of a house you got for this price compared to Atlanta. What threw us for a loop were the property taxes. One house we almost bid on was listed for 399K but had 13K/yr in property taxes. $13000 is a hell of a lot for property taxes. I realize assessed value varies even within the same sales price range. Other homes listed for 400K still had at least 8-9K in annual property taxes.

Yeah, houses here are cheaper than some other areas of the country but the property taxes here are insane. This area rivals NJ for property tax. My house in Alpharetta was sold for 419K and that had annual property taxes of $4500.

What's the deal with this area and taxes? Why are these property taxes so high?

[Copanut]

School districts are you highest portion of property taxes and those people are WELL PAID.

[BrianTH]

Property taxes as a percentage of income are about average (among larger cities) in the Pittsburgh area. But the property tax base (a function of assessed values and ultimately property prices) is relatively low, so the property tax rate has to be relatively high in order to reach that about-average level of property taxation. In short, relatively low property prices means relatively high property tax rates, assuming about the same level of overall property taxation.

On the plus side, lower property prices also lead to lower housing costs in terms of mortgages, opportunity cost of capital, and insurance. But I do think people moving from elsewhere need to be careful: although the low property prices can be a pleasant surprise, you should make sure you actually end up paying less for your housing as a multiple of your income than you would elsewhere, not just spend as much as you would elsewhere and get a nicer house. Of course with all the other advantages of lower property prices you can often split the difference: both pay less AND get a nicer house. Just don't do only the latter.

[SteelersGo]

it's not only the schools (which are very good), it is now also their new recreational center:

Property tax rate rises by 1.2 mills in Upper St. Clair
Upper St. Clair rec center comes with $16.5 million price tag | YourSouthhills.com (http://www.yoursouthhills.com/blog/upper-st-clair-rec-center-comes-165-million-price-tag - broken link)
Upper St. Clair approves 1.2 mill tax increase - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
Property tax rate rises by 1.2 mills in Upper St. Clair | Legal > Tax Law from AllBusiness.com (http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/tax-law-property-tax/13578921-1.html - broken link)

[Stockton.]

So I guess the 10K I can expect to pay every year for property taxes is worth it?

Do all of you guys pay that much?

[Hopes]

The problem many people coming here from high cost of living areas is that they buy larger houses because real estate prices are cheaper here. They often don't realize that higher property taxes come with that greater sized home. For instance, if you lived in a 1,500sf house at 400k in Atlanta and can find a 2500sf house for 400k in Pittsburgh, it seems logical to buy bigger and better. Yet property taxes are higher here to offset the fact that our property values are lower.

The government and school districts still needs a certain amount of money to provide services and education. With property values lower, it makes complete sense that the taxes would be higher to collect enough to provide those services and education. Whereas in Atlanta where property values are higher, it takes a smaller percentage of taxes for government and schools to collect money to provide services.

Another thing that many people don't realize is that our income tax is lower than many states that have low property tax. (For instance, Georgia's income tax is as high as 6% whereas Pennsylvania's income tax rate is 3.07%). Pennsylvania also doesn't have personal property tax. For sales tax, food and clothing isn't taxed in Pennsylvania.

Think of our real estate property tax as a luxury tax----the more luxurious the house you want, the more you'll pay in taxes.

It all comes down to if you want to be greedy and buy a larger house because property values are lower. If you bought the same square footage as your house in Atlanta (for example 1500sf), your taxes would be lower and more managable. The smartest thing to do is buy a house that is similar to the house you already have----for significantly less money than you paid for your current house. Then you have lots of money---maintaining the same standard of living but having much more money left over to improve your quality of life. Buying a larger house simply because it's the same price you paid in Atlanta isn't taking advantage of the savings Pittsburgh provides in a lower cost of living. Savings are in housing prices. But your buying a house that costs the same amount of money as your house in Atlanta isn't saving you a penny. It's merely buying you more house. As a result, your cost of living won't be much lower in Pittsburgh than Atlanta since your spending is going to remain the same since you're trading up.

Also, when considering a larger house, also take into consideration that Pennsylvania's utilities are significantly higher than utilities in Atlanta. 52% higher! That's a hidden cost in buying a larger house that you woudn't expect. The larger house will cost more to heat and air condition even in Atlanta, but move to Pennsylvania where utility costs are higher and you'll be paying WAY more money for utilities than you currently pay. Way more than 52% even---since you're buying a larger house. This is another good reason to stick with buying a house with square footage similar to your house in Atlanta.

Originally Posted by Stockton.

Do all of you guys pay that much?

No. I don't pay that much because I don't live in a 450k house.

I chose to live more modestly because I'd rather have more money to invest for retirement, private school for children, vacations, and overall quality of life.

Bottom line: What makes Pittsburgh's cost of living so low is the fact that our property values are extremely low. However, if you buy a house for the same money you spent on a house in Atlanta, you're cost of living won't be lower in Pittsburgh because you're paying the exact same money to live here. Since the property taxes are higher, you'll actually have a higher cost of living in Pittsburgh than Atlanta if you buy excessively.

Basically, I'm saying that if you have a 1500sf house in Atlanta for 400k, come to Pittsburgh and buy a 1500sf house for 150k-200k. Don't spend 400k for a house in Pittsburgh simply because that's what you paid in Atlanta and you can get more house in Pittsburgh. If you do, you'll be in for a rude awakening. You're cost of living will end up higher in Pittsburgh than Atlanta. Buy modestly and your cost of living will be lower without having to buy a smaller house than you currently own.

[Stockton.]

The square footage on the house I sold in Georgia was about 3200 sq ft. The houses in Upper St Clair which are in this same price range are about 3000 sq ft as well so the sizes are comparable. What is incomparable is the huge discrepancy in property tax.

I have 4 kids, so I need a good school district and a larger house at this stage of my life. Not everyone who lives in larger houses does so because of greed.

I appreciate the condescending tone of your last sentence but I assure you we will not be "house poor". I am just curious as to why the property taxes are so high for a 400K house. Especially since this price range seems to be on lower half of the median for this zip code.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Stockton.

The square footage on the house I sold in Georgia was about 3200 sq ft. The houses in Upper St Clair which are in this same price range are about 3000 sq ft as well so the sizes are comparable. What is incomparable is the huge discrepancy in property tax.

I was just tossing out square footage as an example. Our housing prices are 91% cheaper than Atlanta's. Our utilities are 52% more expensive.

Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitors sites is not allowed

Originally Posted by Stockton.

I have 4 kids, so I need a good school district and a larger house at this stage of my life. Not everyone who lives in larger houses does so because of greed.

Pittsburgh has many great school districts. And there are many larger houses that don't cost 450k in Pittsburgh.

Originally Posted by Stockton.

I appreciate the condescending tone of your last sentence but I assure you we will not be "house poor". I am just curious as to why the property taxes are so high for a 400K house.

I wasn't being condescending to you specifically. We've seen this happen many times with people who move here from high cost of living areas. They don't understand our tax structure and they end up with a higher cost of living than where they lived previously. When I edited my previous post, it was to add the information about how our utility prices are significantly higher than utility prices in Atlanta. Add higher utilities to the higher property taxes and you very well could end up house poor without intending to be house poor.

Seriously consider Peter's Township. It's right next to Upper St. Clair and the property taxes are lower since it's outside of Allegheny County. It's a good school district. That's where many people from Upper St. Clair are moving to avoid the higher property taxes. So that's your answer----many people don't think it's worth it and that's why they're leaving Upper St. Clair for Peter's Township.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Stockton.

The square footage on the house I sold in Georgia was about 3200 sq ft. The houses in Upper St Clair which are in this same price range are about 3000 sq ft as well so the sizes are comparable.

If you're getting the same size and quality house for the same price range, you would have never posted the following:

Originally Posted by Stockton.

We were looking at houses that were about $400-450K and were surprised at how nice of a house you got for this price compared to Atlanta.

[Stockton.]

Originally Posted by Hopes

Pittsburgh has many great school districts. And there are many larger houses that don't cost 450k in Pittsburgh.

Where in Pittsburgh can you get 3000 square feet for less than 400K and get a top notch school district?