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the principle of separation of church and state is NOT in the constitution, it came from thomas jefferson.
But Thomas Jefferson was one of the chief architects of the Constitution. His thinking is clearly reflected in the Constitution as the Federalist Papers clearly show.
Separation of church and state is NOT A METAPHOR. It's a concept.
The concept is clearly found in the 1st Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
If government cannot make laws respecting the establishment of religion, and if government also cannot prohibit free exercise of religion, then, in concept, how can church and state be anything but separate?
Congress refers to FEDERAL GOVT. Some of the states at the time of ratifying the Consititution already had an "official" religion.
So, if the state is to sponsor any religion which should it be; Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist? If one is chosen then should all convert to it? What would happen to people of other faiths? I believe we can find an answer to these questions by looking at nations who have done just that such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, etc. Those are not countries in which I would want to live. That's why the government should NEVER endorse any religion. The United States is a place for all faiths. Keep religion in the home and the church where it belongs and leave our government and public schools out of it.
well said. this is the very reason that the founding fathers wrote the first amendment the way they did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy
But Thomas Jefferson was one of the chief architects of the Constitution. His thinking is clearly reflected in the Constitution as the Federalist Papers clearly show.
that may be, BUT the constitution itself does not put up a separation of church and state, except to say that the state cannot force religion on anyone, neither can the state prevent anyone from exercising their religious beliefs.
Separation of Church and State - The Metaphor and the Constitution
"Separation of church and state" is a common metaphor that is well recognized. Equally well recognized is the metaphorical meaning of the church staying out of the state's business and the state staying out of the church's business. Because of the very common usage of the "separation of church and state phrase," most people incorrectly think the phrase is in the constitution. The phrase "wall of separation between the church and the state" was originally coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802. His purpose in this letter was to assuage the fears of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists, and so he told them that this wall had been erected to protect them. The metaphor was used exclusively to keep the state out of the church's business, not to keep the church out of the state's business.
But Thomas Jefferson was one of the chief architects of the Constitution. His thinking is clearly reflected in the Constitution as the Federalist Papers clearly show.
Dude, Jefferson was in Europe while the US Constitution was being written.
Separation of Church and State - The Metaphor and the Constitution
"Separation of church and state" is a common metaphor that is well recognized. The metaphor was used exclusively to keep the state out of the church's business, not to keep the church out of the state's business.
Separation of Church and State are not in the Constitution , if you see it show it here ....
Since the word God nor Jesus are not in the Constitution either, let's look at the definition of church:
Church - The word translated "church" in the English Bible is ekklesia. This word is the Greek words kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out). Thus, the word means "the called out ones." However, the English word "church" does not come from ekklesia but from the word kuriakon, which means "dedicated to the Lord." This word was commonly used to refer to a holy place or temple. By the time of Jerome's translation of the New Testament from Greek to Latin, it was customary to use a derivative of kuriakon to translate ekklesia. Therefore, the word church is a poor translation of the word ekklesia since it implies a sacred building, or temple. A more accurate translation would be "assembly" because the term ekklesia was used to refer to a group of people who had been called out to a meeting. It was also used as a synonym for the word synagogue, which also means to "come together," i.e. a gathering. It is also a metaphor which demonstrates the interdependence of members in the church, while at the same time demonstrating their diversity from one another. (Rom. 12:4; 1 Cor. 12:14-17)
If you believe church and state are not separate, simply by the words you see or don't see in in the Constitution, then by your own rule of interpretation, it simply means the state has a right to call citizens to a meeting with no direct attachment to Christianity And the word "church" is a metaphor just as the phrase "Separation of Church and State" is
Dude, Jefferson was in Europe while the US Constitution was being written.
Madison is by far the better to read when determining what the Constitution means by its writing, since he was the principle architect.
Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731)
Thats his summary of the first amendment.
Veto Message, Feb 21, 1811 By James Madison, to the House of Representatives of the United States: Having examined and considered the bill entitled "An Act incorporating the Protestant Episcopal Church in the town of Alexander, in the District of Columbia," I now return the bill to the House of Representatives, in which it originated, with the following objections:
Because the bill exceeds the rightful authority to which governments are limited by the essential distinction between civil and religious functions, and violates in particular the article of the Constitution of the United States which declares 'Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment.' [Note: Madison quotes the Establishment Clause incorrectly; Constitutional scholar Leonard Levy comments on this misquoting as follows: "His [Madison's] use of "religious establishment" enstead of "establishment of religion" shows that he thought of the clause in the Frist Amendment as prohibiting Congress from making any law touching or "respecting" religious institutions or religions; The Establishment Clause, p. 119]
Madison is by far the better to read when determining what the Constitution means by its writing, since he was the principle architect.
Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731)
Thats his summary of the first amendment.
Veto Message, Feb 21, 1811 By James Madison, to the House of Representatives of the United States: Having examined and considered the bill entitled "An Act incorporating the Protestant Episcopal Church in the town of Alexander, in the District of Columbia," I now return the bill to the House of Representatives, in which it originated, with the following objections:
Because the bill exceeds the rightful authority to which governments are limited by the essential distinction between civil and religious functions, and violates in particular the article of the Constitution of the United States which declares 'Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment.' [Note: Madison quotes the Establishment Clause incorrectly; Constitutional scholar Leonard Levy comments on this misquoting as follows: "His [Madison's] use of "religious establishment" enstead of "establishment of religion" shows that he thought of the clause in the Frist Amendment as prohibiting Congress from making any law touching or "respecting" religious institutions or religions; The Establishment Clause, p. 119]
I am sure that very few people have ever read Madison's notes on the Constitution. I am also sure that very few know that Madison didn't debate a lot at the meetings. Why don't we ever hear the names of the representatives who offered the two plans for government and pushed what they could of them through? Why is it that we hear so much Madison and Jefferson and so little Hamilton. Hamilton did write a number of the papers in defense of the Constitution but lefties don't seem to know about any but the two they pitch in all the time.
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with no direct attachment to Christianity
And the word "church" is a metaphor just as the phrase "Separation of Church and State" is
