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That's probably my biggest issue with this debate... the SAME people who scream about abortions are often the SAME people who oppose free condoms & sexual health clinics. The religious right-wing also tries to push "abstinence-only" education, which has already been proven to be a complete joke. It's all just too hypocritical for my taste.
I completely agree.
The shelter I worked at did not recieve funding to provide overnight shelter. We closed at 7 PM. I know for a fact that some of the kids had to make a choice between literally freezing to death and spending the night somewhere in exchange for sex. And people wanted to deny them condoms, and then condemn them if they chose to terminate the pregancy.
I recall one girl...her name was Jenny. She couldn't go home because her mother's "boyfriend" was always attacking her. The foster parents available did not want to deal with older children. Sometimes she gave it up for a warm place to sleep and I used to give her condoms. But obviously it wasn't an option all the time, because Jenny froze to death while sleeping in the park one night in the early spring.
Not true at all. The alley abortion is an old overused red herring. While millions of babies are chopping up into a bloody pulp now the backroom hanger abortion was relatively rare. Since the legal abortion is so ubiquitous more women die now from a legal abortion then they did from the illegal abortion. With the barriers to degenerate sex removed - along with the media constantly touting the virtues of transient sex- is it any wonder that what was a few hundred abortions a year is now a few million a year. With millions of abortions there is going to be a load of collateral damage.
This is not only about a genocide. The survivors of sexual degeneracy suffer just as much, What about the horrorshow of increased divorce, ruined families and sexuality transmitted diseases enabled by abortion?
Do we have classes about how to safely jam our hand into operating blenders? We know the repercussions of that so we all avoid that. If the repercussions of transient sex is disease, chopped up baby, guilt, busted family, poverty and other horrors why should we have clinics embedded in our communities educating our children on how to transit this minefield of horror? Would it not be right just to avoid the danger entirely?
See this is where the genocide comes in. These vipers are there to guide the children into the abyss and provide a facade of safety into what is a very dangerous "place". In this zone of sexual degeneracy lies death, disease and destruction of the building block of civilization -the family- maybe not in this generation but certainly in the foreseeable future.
Teaching abstinance only DOES NOT WORK. Here is an example: Bristol Palin. She was brought up in the church and her family taught abstinance. Well..........we see how well that worked out. Now, what do you have? Another single mother on her own with a child to raise. Where is the father? Where is the traditional family unit? I just see another broken family. Another child living in a home without a father present.
Had Bristol been taught about birth control and been given the opportunity to use it, she would probably have furthered her own education and eventually married and had babies with a man who would not desert her..........thus establishing an INTACT family unit.
Teaching abstinance only DOES NOT WORK. Here is an example: Bristol Palin. She was brought up in the church and her family taught abstinance. Well..........we see how well that worked out. Now, what do you have? Another single mother on her own with a child to raise. Where is the father? Where is the traditional family unit? I just see another broken family. Another child living in a home without a father present.
Had Bristol been taught about birth control and been given the opportunity to use it, she would probably have furthered her own education and eventually married and had babies with a man who would not desert her..........thus establishing an INTACT family unit.
See how that works?
Great post. Alaska has a huge teen pregnancy problem as it is and obviously didn't even work for the gov's daughter...
Palin also cut funding for teen parent programs during her thankfully short stint in office. I wuld think that she would have wanted to provide a bit more support for those who chose not to go the abortion route. Oh well, we're well rid of her.
one thing I don't get is that so many of the Right to Lifers seem to have problems with birth control itself being provided free or at low cost to those who may need it. When I worked at a homeless shelter for street youth we'd get at least a couple of calls a week from people railing on us because we provided free condoms. We even got picketed a time or two.
That's probably my biggest issue with this debate... the SAME people who scream about abortions are often the SAME people who oppose free condoms & sexual health clinics. The religious right-wing also tries to push "abstinence-only" education, which has already been proven to be a complete joke. It's all just too hypocritical for my taste.
I completely agree.
This is a side issue. It is a Red Herring. It does not deal with the debate at hand. Some pro-life people might be against contraceptives (and you can argue that in another thread), but that doesn't negate the fact that abortion is keeping someone from living. It doesn't negate the reasons why these same people are pro-life. They still support life. Their stance on contraceptives doesn't negate their stance on abortion.
Transient sex is never that neat and clean. This is a minefield of danger that you are throwing this girl into. Without the benefit of crystal ball who knows what would have happened to this girl.
The birth control certainly opens up so much possibility by providing a facade of safety. Maybe she would have forgotten to take her pills and gotten pregnant anyway. maybe she would have caught an STD like HIV and ruined her health. Maybe she would have been slipped a ambien at a bar while on her birth control fueled man search and gang raped in an hotel. Maybe she would have been spurned by so many lovers that she turned into a bitter spinster that never has a kid and is filled with the empty feeling of regret. Maybe as a rich girl with a distant "power" mother she was heading towards real danger in her life and the baby was just what she needed to settle her ass down before she really threw her life into the gutter. Not killing the baby maybe saved her future grief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie53
Teaching abstinance only DOES NOT WORK. Here is an example: Bristol Palin. She was brought up in the church and her family taught abstinance. Well..........we see how well that worked out. Now, what do you have? Another single mother on her own with a child to raise. Where is the father? Where is the traditional family unit? I just see another broken family. Another child living in a home without a father present.
Had Bristol been taught about birth control and been given the opportunity to use it, she would probably have furthered her own education and eventually married and had babies with a man who would not desert her..........thus establishing an INTACT family unit.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samyn on the green
Needed? Since when do babies need to be killed? None of them need to be sliced/diced, or sucked out/drowned. There is no need accept to meet the an outside agenda of genocide.
How do you create a silent genocide? Remove the repercussions of sexual degeneracy and promote a promiscuous lifestyle. The fruit of rampant transient sex is death, violence and the dissolution of the family. All of which we see happening in the black urban communities most targeted by Margret Sanger's eugenics movement. The fruit of the murder practiced inside her planned parenthood clinics on every ghetto corner can be viewed in the jails the projects and in the explosion of out of wedlock births.
Samyn, I actually understand your references to the eugenics movement and share some of the sentiment. What are you doing to fight it, beyond spreading disgusting imagery and vitriol in forums that really, in the final analysis, make absolutely no difference? Nothing said here is going to save a life. This is just a weekend brawl compared to the real fight to save our society from the monsters. So what are you actually DOING in the fight?
This is a side issue. It is a Red Herring. It does not deal with the debate at hand. Some pro-life people might be against contraceptives (and you can argue that in another thread), but that doesn't negate the fact that abortion is keeping someone from living. It doesn't negate the reasons why these same people are pro-life. They still support life. Their stance on contraceptives doesn't negate their stance on abortion.
How is advocating safe sex & available birth control a "red herring?" It is DIRECTLY related to the number of unwanted pregnancies, and thus the number of possible abortions... the fact that you can't see a connection here is one of the root problems.
Dreaming of a world where everybody is safe, responsible, and doesn't have casual sex, is just that - a dream. The reality is that people will do these things, and therefore we need to stop it BEFORE it happens. Hence, the need for available/low-cost contraception and factual sex education. Those are the angles that will reduce abortion, not the tactics you and other pro-lifers are advocating.
Please show me where we advocated abstinence only. Do that and I'll show you three places where in this thread I advocated abstinence first, contraceptives second.
Here are two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartalx
I disagree. I think it's because we argue AT each other and we don't get on the same page. There is no common ground. This is why my realization (that the difference between the pro-life position and the pro-choice position is all about our attitudes about casual sex) is so relevant. If we can get on the same page regarding our "right" to have casual sex, and our responsibilities when contraceptives fail, then we should be able to get on the same page regarding abortion.
And advocate abstinence. (Abstinence "only" programs fail because they don't address the question: "do we have a right to have casual sex" and the programs don't address the overly sexual attitudes prevalent in society today.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartalx
I'm not against contraceptives. But I do know that 99% efficacy times 43 million sexually active single women in the US means 430,000 pregnancies from so-called "protected sex" per year for the US alone.
So I understand that contraceptives help, but they don't solve the global problems associated with a sexually perverse culture. The only real solution is to reverse our attitudes towards sex. A complete abandonment of casual sex is unrealistic, so we should combine the two. Treat sex with the respect it deserves. Use the best form of contraceptive available to you. Only have sex until you can take care of the baby if you get pregnant.
I don't think Samyn was advocating abstinence only either.
This is a side issue. It is a Red Herring. It does not deal with the debate at hand. Some pro-life people might be against contraceptives (and you can argue that in another thread), but that doesn't negate the fact that abortion is keeping someone from living. It doesn't negate the reasons why these same people are pro-life. They still support life. Their stance on contraceptives doesn't negate their stance on abortion.
I think that it does.
Otherwise...those opposed to abortion (and I'm one) who are also opposed to contraception have deeper issues at play. Basically they are trying to impose their own morality on others.
Abortion is disgusting but education and access to contraception are going to prevent it on a larger scale than any amount of preaching.
Samyn, I actually understand your references to the eugenics movement and share some of the sentiment. What are you doing to fight it, beyond spreading disgusting imagery and vitriol in forums that really, in the final analysis, make absolutely no difference? Nothing said here is going to save a life. This is just a weekend brawl compared to the real fight to save our society from the monsters. So what are you actually DOING in the fight?
Good question. As a teacher (and librarian) in urban low-income neighborhoods, I've always tried to encourage open discussions... I worked at an after-school program last year, and we had a really great "round table discussion" about teen pregnancy. The kids were so appreciative of our willingness to listen, and the fact that we didn't judge - and we heard some pretty amazing stories! Once they realized it was a safe place to talk, they really opened up and told us what they dealt with in regards to sex & pregnancies.
I think that's a good place to start, even if you aren't actually a teacher. Just be available and honest with any young people in your life, and let them know you will listen without judging. You'd be surprised how far this can reach, and how easily you can affect their train of thought... teens are impressionable, so I try to take advantage of that in a positive manner.
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As a teacher (and librarian) in urban low-income neighborhoods, I've always tried to encourage open discussions... I worked at an after-school program last year, and we had a really great "round table discussion" about teen pregnancy. The kids were so appreciative of our willingness to listen, and the fact that we didn't judge - and we heard some pretty amazing stories! Once they realized it was a safe place to talk, they really opened up and told us what they dealt with in regards to sex & pregnancies.