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My dad is also an African immigrant and also experienced racism. The difference between the way he experiences racism vs. my African American mother? She was conditioned to believe that she was subservient to whites whereas he had no racial hierarchy in his mind. Does he laugh at African Americans because his experience is fundamentally different in a way that puts him at an advantage? Nope. You know why? Because HE can appreciate how lucky he is to not have been socially trained to associate his race with inferiority, which is something that obviously you or your parents cannot. I can only shake my head at Africans who hold a grudge against a group people that they have a psychological leg up over because they buy into the "blacks are bad, whites are good" bull**** that American culture spoon-feeds to them... it's sad to me that the majority of the cultural exchange from America to Africa is our cinema, because it's among the most racist of all of our media.
Whose holding any grudges? I'm just not going to cosign the victimization spiel which you've embraced.
So basically you're trying to use Oprah Winfrey to argue that slavery was a good thing. How pathetically stupid.
I don't see that at all. Oprah is an extraordinary individual. She had plenty to deter her but didn't let it. There are others like her--the man whose like was made into the movie who was homeless and by sheer force of will had a financial firm take him on as a trainee and who is now wealthy. Every race has such people. It also has those who unless plunked in the good place will never try because they feel they can't. And a vast inbetween in which the degree of attitude matters.
The problem is that culture has become a problem, not a help. We should glorify those like Oprah and this gentleman who weren't good a sports or other 'black' things but succeeded as an example to look toward. But what do we see? Gangster rappers, sports 'stars' who act badly, and the like held as the hero's.
I think its true that should no blacks have every come the decendents of those who did would still be in a lot of hurt which makes us look pretty good. Slaves went plenty of other places too and part of the pattern which still exists was the strong preying on the weak, often as slavers. I mean other black african tribes here. If they came here would have made little difference.
But the 'past' can only influence so far. Individuals have to choose not to be victums. They have to teach their children values which will lead them out of the state of victumhood. If the height of success is lots of babies and fast cars and drug connections then you are going nowhere fast. The problem is, you cannot fix a culture from without. Until those who live in it decide to remake black culture, it will continue to trap those who can't just say no into thinking of themselves as victums.
Did the legacy of slavery contribute? of course. Did the poverty contribute, true too. But at some point that has to be left behind. That does not come from what was but the present. If you can't live in the present, and let past be past you condem yourself to being trapped in it.
Was slavery a plus? We can't say. But we can say it was but isn't and let it go. Invent a machine which looks at alternate timelines where someone else was the slaves and fast forward to Africa today and maybe you could say either way, but until then the good or bad of the past is simply something that was and the results should be negotiable.
But you know they say that those that forget about the past are doomed to repeat it. It's like a Jew telling his child, "Forget the Holocaust, let's just move forward..."
Not the same idea at all. I grew up with a lot of Jewish friends. Their families didn't say to forget or ignore. But they and the friends I've had in adulthood did not walk around thinking of*themselves* as victums. Maybe relatives or family but they didn't approach life with a victum mentality.
If its claimed that as slavery was practiced, and racism, then those were NOT slaves and those who have grown up since it went out of vogue to have seperate waiting rooms for the bus should see themselves as victums then you have the *seed* of the problem. People decided if they are victums and when they decide they won't be things change.
Victums are voluntary beyond the first generation.
Not the same idea at all. I grew up with a lot of Jewish friends. Their families didn't say to forget or ignore. But they and the friends I've had in adulthood did not walk around thinking of*themselves* as victums. Maybe relatives or family but they didn't approach life with a victum mentality.
If its claimed that as slavery was practiced, and racism, then those were NOT slaves and those who have grown up since it went out of vogue to have seperate waiting rooms for the bus should see themselves as victums then you have the *seed* of the problem. People decided if they are victums and when they decide they won't be things change.
Victums are voluntary beyond the first generation.
The Jews never thought of themselves as "victims?"
My dad is also an African immigrant and also experienced racism. The difference between the way he experiences racism vs. my African American mother? She was conditioned to believe that she was subservient to whites whereas he had no racial hierarchy in his mind. Does he laugh at African Americans because his experience is fundamentally different in a way that puts him at an advantage? Nope. You know why? Because HE can appreciate how lucky he is to not have been socially trained to associate his race with inferiority, which is something that obviously you or your parents cannot. I can only shake my head at Africans who hold a grudge against a group people that they have a psychological leg up over because they buy into the "blacks are bad, whites are good" bull**** that American culture spoon-feeds to them... it's sad to me that the majority of the cultural exchange from America to Africa is our cinema, because it's among the most racist of all of our media.
I read these threads and then I laugh at how civilians accuse the military of being full of racists.
You all need therapy.
The military isn't LESS racist. It's has the same cross section of assh*les that the rest of this country has. It's not like the Pentagon draws only the most virtuous of Americans for military service.
That aside, the institution is regulated fairly strongly and certain behaviors are not openly tolerated...."openly" being the operative word here. At my first duty station (Vicenza, Italy), i had to run up on a few cats for slick talking on a couple of occasions and the problems were quickly quelled. After that, i had few if any problems.
But to say it's "full of racists" is probably inaccurate. But there are plenty, that's for damn sure.
The Jews never thought of themselves as "victims?"
That's the first i've heard of that.
I was replying to the implication that the poster had that saying slavery should not be used as a crutch is like saying the Holocaust should just be forgotten. The people who were instiutionally murdered were victums of a specific act perpetuated by a long history. The implication was that it is equal. In some ways it is. But the really important part is that its perpetuated and made infinitely worse when people find comfort in seeing themselves as victums of the past.
Black culture has continued that, at least in some portions. This is why the only fix can come from within.
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